[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":457},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-primary":3,"footer-secondary":93,"footer-description":119,"trace-talks-tom-morano":121,"trace-talks-tom-morano-next":188,"sales-reps":206},{"items":4},[5,29,49,69],{"id":6,"title":7,"url":8,"page":8,"children":9},"522e608a-77b0-4333-820d-d4f44be2ade1","Solutions",null,[10,15,20,25],{"id":11,"title":12,"url":8,"page":13},"fcafe85a-a798-4710-9e7a-776fe413aae5","Headless CMS",{"permalink":14},"/solutions/headless-cms",{"id":16,"title":17,"url":8,"page":18},"79972923-93cf-4777-9e32-5c9b0315fc10","Backend-as-a-Service",{"permalink":19},"/solutions/backend-as-a-service",{"id":21,"title":22,"url":8,"page":23},"0fa8d0c1-7b64-4f6f-939d-d7fdb99fc407","Product Information",{"permalink":24},"/solutions/product-information-management",{"id":26,"title":27,"url":28,"page":8},"63946d54-6052-4780-8ff4-91f5a9931dcc","100+ Things to Build","https://directus.io/blog/100-tools-apps-and-platforms-you-can-build-with-directus",{"id":30,"title":31,"url":8,"page":8,"children":32},"8ab4f9b1-f3e2-44d6-919b-011d91fe072f","Resources",[33,37,41,45],{"id":34,"title":35,"url":36,"page":8},"f951fb84-8777-4b84-9e91-996fe9d25483","Documentation","https://docs.directus.io",{"id":38,"title":39,"url":40,"page":8},"366febc7-a538-4c08-a326-e6204957f1e3","Guides","https://docs.directus.io/guides/",{"id":42,"title":43,"url":44,"page":8},"aeb9128e-1c5f-417f-863c-2449416433cd","Community","https://directus.chat",{"id":46,"title":47,"url":48,"page":8},"da1c2ed8-0a77-49b0-a903-49c56cb07de5","Release Notes","https://github.com/directus/directus/releases",{"id":50,"title":51,"url":8,"page":8,"children":52},"d61fae8c-7502-494a-822f-19ecff3d0256","Support",[53,57,61,65],{"id":54,"title":55,"url":56,"page":8},"8c43c781-7ebd-475f-a931-747e293c0a88","Issue Tracker","https://github.com/directus/directus/issues",{"id":58,"title":59,"url":60,"page":8},"d77bb78e-cf7b-4e01-932a-514414ba49d3","Feature Requests","https://github.com/directus/directus/discussions?discussions_q=is:open+sort:top",{"id":62,"title":63,"url":64,"page":8},"4346be2b-2c53-476e-b53b-becacec626a6","Community Chat","https://discord.com/channels/725371605378924594/741317677397704757",{"id":66,"title":67,"url":68,"page":8},"26c115d2-49f7-4edc-935e-d37d427fb89d","Cloud Dashboard","https://directus.cloud",{"id":70,"title":71,"url":8,"page":8,"children":72},"49141403-4f20-44ac-8453-25ace1265812","Organization",[73,78,84,88],{"id":74,"title":75,"url":76,"page":77},"1f36ea92-8a5e-47c8-914c-9822a8b9538a","About","/about",{"permalink":76},{"id":79,"title":80,"url":81,"page":82},"b84bf525-5471-4b14-a93c-225f6c386005","Careers","#",{"permalink":83},"/careers",{"id":85,"title":86,"url":87,"page":8},"86aabc3a-433d-434b-9efa-ad1d34be0a34","Brand Assets","https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lBOTba4RaA5ikqOn8Ewo4RYzD0XcymG9?usp=sharing",{"id":89,"title":90,"url":8,"page":91},"8d2fa1e3-198e-4405-81e1-2ceb858bc237","Contact",{"permalink":92},"/contact",{"items":94},[95,101,107,113],{"id":96,"title":97,"url":8,"page":98,"children":100},"8a1b7bfa-429d-4ffc-a650-2a5fdcf356da","Cloud Policies",{"permalink":99},"/cloud-policies",[],{"id":102,"title":103,"url":81,"page":104,"children":106},"bea848ef-828f-4306-8017-6b00ec5d4a0c","License",{"permalink":105},"/bsl",[],{"id":108,"title":109,"url":81,"page":110,"children":112},"4e914f47-4bee-42b7-b445-3119ee4196ef","Terms",{"permalink":111},"/terms",[],{"id":114,"title":115,"url":81,"page":116,"children":118},"ea69eda6-d317-4981-8421-fcabb1826bfd","Privacy",{"permalink":117},"/privacy",[],{"description":120},"\u003Cp>A composable backend to build your Headless CMS, BaaS, and more. \u003C/p>",{"id":122,"slug":123,"vimeo_id":124,"description":125,"tile":126,"length":127,"resources":8,"people":128,"episode_number":138,"published":139,"title":140,"video_transcript_html":141,"video_transcript_text":142,"content":8,"status":143,"episode_people":144,"recommendations":175,"season":176,"seo":8},"57dcdecb-35d2-45da-b230-17ec18dfabce","tom-morano","902512802","Tom shares his unexpected ascent into leadership and his unique perspective on guiding teams. This episode offers valuable lessons on leadership and personal growth.","76e00679-8ef7-4e09-bc64-f814b04e0235",30,[129,132,135],{"name":130,"url":131},"John Daniels","https://www.linkedin.com/in/jwdaniels/",{"name":133,"url":134},"Pedro Pizarro","https://www.linkedin.com/in/pedropizarrojr/",{"name":136,"url":137},"Tom Morano","https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-morano-719022b/",5,"2024-02-22","Tom Morano, Technical Lead at SMX Consulting","\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Just like a sidebar, I noticed you had some instruments in the back. Do you play guitar? Is that a guitar?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: It is a guitar. It's actually a guitar case. The guitar is millimeter. But I I, I'm not the typical dev. I, sing and play in a band.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Dev rockstar. I like it. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Tech Talk. We have Tom with us. Tom, would you mind introducing yourself to everyone in the audience? Just give a brief introduction, who you are, what you do, and then we'll we'll kinda dive into the conversation for today.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Name's Tom Marano. I live in Buffalo, New York, and I am currently a technical lead for SMX Consulting on a, state project.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks so much. We, we had a intro conversation a couple weeks ago, and you had a couple interesting stories from your background. So if you don't mind, could you give us a little bit of your background in engineering, how you got to where you are today? We'll probably interrupt you a couple times to ask some questions, but remember a couple points that I'd I'd love to see if you bring back up just about your history.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So how did you get into engineering and kind of what's what's been your journey along the way?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: So I've always been a fan of technology. I was the kid who literally took everything apart in my parents' house. Yes, my dad how many times it took apart his, like, $1,000 stereo and tried to put it back together. Happened a lot. So always been big fan of just anything tech.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Love video games, obviously, growing up. And, actually got my start really building computers and everything when I was younger and CD burners became a thing. And, I quickly learned how to, get music, but that, you know, is, the legibly as possible. Yeah. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>The leg away. So quickly learn how to burn CDs, and I actually, would make CDs for people in in high school and everything and, you know, sell them to people, for, you know, 5 bucks. And, through school too, I I went on a program a little bit, did a little bit HTML and, c on the side. And then, college stuck with that as as far as school went. I did deviate a little bit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I got into a little bit of electrical, engineering a little bit for a couple years and then decided I liked programming better. So, went back and, got my bachelor's in computer science, from an online school and got my first job, programming for a health care company here in Buffalo, learning the ropes, most of it the hard way because there wasn't a ton of guidance for me at most of the places I worked early on in my career, unfortunately. It was kind of the wild west where it was just kinda me figuring it out. And also, demands the Internet wasn't as big as it is now, so it wasn't a good resource to even fall back on. So it was always hard trying to figure my way around things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then as I kept growing in my career, jumping from position to position, I was able to find some decent mentors around me and, eventually ended up at a larger, health care comp well, benefits company here in Buffalo that was very, very well structured as far as their documentation organization. Had a really, really good agile practice in place. And, also, like, kinda gave me the guidance as far as, like, how to properly run SDLC and for an organization and just give me those guideposts as far as, like, how you can effectively create a really good application. And just good communication practices, good team camaraderie, ideas being spread openly around. It was all learned at this, one shop in Buffalo I worked at.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>They're actually not in existence anymore. They're called Liaison, so I'll just throw the name out there. But they were a startup here in Buffalo for years, and I was fortunate enough to meet a lot of really close dev friends when I was there. All of us have gone our separate ways and had our own successes, but it was a really good group of people to work with, and I learned a lot from them. And that's where I got my first leadership role too and, learned a lot there.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>One of the trainings they gave us for all of our the new team leads out there was, something called radical candor, which is a book that's out there a lot of people read. And really good, information there as how to, like, communicate with your team effectively to get get them to focus on the task at hand, find out what they need to do, but also not be a dick doing it, you know. Yeah. You don't have to roll with nigh or fist. You know, you can you can just be stern, tell them what they need to do, but also listen and understand why they might be thinking a wrong thing or in a certain direction, which could even open up your eyes if you're thinking about it wrong too.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that that just opening up that dialogue back and forth really good. And, and when my time ended there, I ended up going to a couple other places. One was a start up I worked at about a about 6 or 7 months ago. That was a new experience for me too. Never worked at a startup that was very, very small, but, ended up being brought in as, like, the second to the VP of engineering.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, eventually, he ended up leaving and, you know, a role was offered to me, and I got thrown to the wolves trying to learn how to run an entire software organization by myself. It was small still, but learned a lot of things the hard way and how to really keep things organized from a very high level. And so direct people down, empower them to run the other parts of the team that I can't have my hands in all the time because I have to think of things from the higher level and think forward as far as, like, getting the product out.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah. Unfortunately, that one folded too. But, I then got this role as a consultant for SMX and, Ceramic.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: That's awesome. Nice. I I'd love to hear a little bit about your path from you know, obviously, you've worked for the larger organizations, the startups. I'd love to hear your perspective on the difference and what the problems are, if they're more similar or more different between those, like, large scale organizations or small ones. Like, I know coming from, you know, most of my background was moving to San Francisco, working for a bunch of different startups and ad tech, all kinds of different technology startups, music as well.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But then I went to work at Juniper Networks. That's actually where I met John. And, obviously, Juniper Networks is a 10,000 person organization. So it's it's fun to see the mess from, you know, the the small problems and the startup land versus, like, the more corporate bureaucracy stuff. But I'd love to hear from your perspective, like, which which you enjoyed more, and just how you kind of see the difference in those, organizations and and building and growing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I will say the one common theme that almost every company I work for has is organization. Like, it's hands down, it's it's the number one issue that most of them have. And\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Depending on who's in charge, it could go good or bad if they're willing to listen to change, if they want to move and pivot. I'm learning that a lot actually through the consulting work I'm doing now. This is my first consulting position I've ever held. And just seeing how the client is struggling with that, and they brought the team I'm with in to try to help them just use agile, which is, you know, pretty common in what most of us devs do these days. Most places use agile.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Some better than others, but they at least try. And, the biggest thing there is just breaking the problem into smaller pieces, which is more digestible and doesn't seem like the world is gonna fall apart because this this problem is just so huge. Like, that's the one benefit of agile. You know? And it's if if you don't have people at the top that can see that and there's no one voicing it, you just have a bunch of, yes men all over the place just nodding their heads and saying, yep.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>We'll get that done. We'll get that done. The weight usually falls down on the people at the bottom doing the work, which is the devs. So then you don't get a good team of devs because they don't wanna be there and deal with that crap. You know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yep.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: You know, they they they just wanna do their job most of the time and go home and feel like they've built something cool that day for the most part. You know? And that's that's like the feel I've loved. And the the first time I really got it was at that, dev shop I worked at in Buffalo for that big gap, where I learned most of what I know today. And, before that, it was a lot of chaos.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, the IT department was always just like those guys in the corner. They do their thing. Nobody really cares. And and it it there wasn't really any organization around it. There there was just yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Can you guys get this done for us? You know? We need it soon.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: And and being part of that, large organization that was very well structured really showed me the benefit of just working together collaboratively with people and not just saying throw it to that guy over the fence and he'll figure it out. You know? That that whole, like, planning phase of building the product that you're on became more enjoyable. Learning more about the architecture patterns became more enjoyable because I was I felt more invested in the work.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: And that was that was a big thing. Like, just feeling like what I did made a difference was like a huge eye opener to me. Like, oh, this I can make a difference doing this stuff. This is cool. I have my voice matters.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I'm not just the guy in the corner. You know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: It's it's always the that that's that's the thing that just made work enjoyable for me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to go back to something that you mentioned from your childhood that kind of peaked you started your curiosity. You mentioned taking things apart and trying to rebuild them. That's something that my dad used to do.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>He used to take apart things back in the sixties, and, that was something that I did when I was a kid. I would take apart things, and I I would usually not rebuild them. I would usually take them apart just to see how they worked and then leave the parts everywhere. Mhmm. But I've I found that that kind of curiosity has transitioned into adulthood still with physical things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, if the weed whacker is broken, I'll just take it apart. I, you know, I don't wanna go buy a new one, so I'll fix it. But I find that some people are just scared to take things apart and try it, not only with physical things, but also with software or leadership or organizations or you know? As as you grow in leadership, you have to wear many hats. So do you find that that's also a similar case for you that because you were able to have that curiosity when you were young and did first off, did it continue to these days, you still kinda tinker with things like that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But do you find that the ability to be comfortable taking things apart and dissecting things has helped you grow into a leadership position both in bigger companies and start ups?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Definitely. The the curiosity to not be afraid to try things on my own, that's the biggest thing I think that probably helped me become a leader right now just because I I will I'm not I'm not scared to speak out. Like, I I will let my voice be heard if I don't agree with a point. Sometimes through a fault, I might Yep. Not I might put my foot in the mouth sometimes, you know, and yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But at at least I'm not scared of expressing my point of view and trying to get it across. Not always right. Nobody's nobody's ever always right. That's that's the one thing And, you know, when I was younger, I was definitely more hard headed. Definitely more hard headed.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>As I got older, it I just slowed I would say probably slowed down is the best way to put it and wasn't so like go go go go attitude. It was more like, okay, let me listen and figure out what other people are thinking. Yeah. And try and get their point of view. Like that's that was the biggest change, beginning into the leadership role was like trying to change my mindset that way and, the the one like, I'll bring back up Radical Candor.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That's one of the big points in there is to be a good listener and understand your people, understand their points of view, understand why they think this way or approach they're taking is right. You know, might not be right, but at least you can understand the point of view and can then, if they are wrong, you can then tell them, well, it's that's not exactly right because a, b and c. Because you can then understand why the thing is. You don't just yell at them and say, no. You have to do it this way.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, you you could talk to people that way. They usually can come to some, rapport with them a little bit easier than just saying get this done or you're in trouble or something.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a differ difference between a boss and a leader. So Mhmm. I I totally agree. Do you find those types of yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>We hope our boss isn't listening, but, but, yeah, yeah, do you do you find that you're able to then also see those types of characteristics in people that you're now leading? Or when you were climbing the ranks, did you see those traits in nobody else, and that's why it was potentially easier for you to also climb into leadership? And then do you see that those types of traits in those that are around you, whether they're other leaders or people who work for you?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Definitely for sure. It's it's not everyone either. Like, there's there's a lot of devs, obviously, who are very introverted. It's just the nature of what we do. You know, a lot of our stuff that we work on is solo by ourselves, and that's the way a lot of us like it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Not everyone's born to be a leader. They just, like, wanna get their work done or work on something cool by themselves. Don't really care too much about anything else. I definitely have some of those on my team right now. I will say they are sometimes the hardest ones to manage because you have to pull information out of them most of the time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But the ones that do have that curiosity to go the extra mile without having to be told exactly what to do, Those ones definitely have those traits in them because they they wanna go the extra mile. They wanna look at the next step without having to be told to go look at the next step. They they wanna understand why they just did and created the, went through the business roles. They just added into the app. They wanna know why they had to do that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So they're going to go down the path, understand the whole process, the whole business process they just had to implement and not just the little piece they worked on. Yeah. And that that helps give them a bigger picture so that they can maybe go into designing a whole system next time and then leading that design and so on and so on. Just building those steps because they have that curiosity to get their head around the whole thing, which is, I think, another part of being a good leader too, to understand everything involved with the processes that you're managing and going through. Because if you if you don't understand that, you're just some guy talking in the back telling people what to do all day.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Right. Just issuing directives. Yeah. How do you when you identify these traits in folks, as their leader, like, how do you take those skills and and build on to them to, you know, train the next, you know, generation of leaders or or help build them into something like your role that you have now?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Slowly giving them more responsibility, I think, is the first thing. Like, gaining that trust with them, and even letting letting them fail too sometimes is good because they need to be able to deal with some of the failures too that come with it if they maybe pick a bad decision. Learning how to bounce back from that or pivot to a different direction if they realize, oh, this isn't gonna work. We gotta try something else. But, yeah, it's slowly giving them more and more responsibilities and eventually even letting them lead certain projects or whatever you happen to be on.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That's that's a good step to try to let them spread their wings a little bit Yeah. I think.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Do you ever do you ever miss being an or do you still individually contribute, or do you ever miss not being a leader? Are there other times where you're you just say, man, I wish I was just plugging away at code or or developing something today and not having to deal with bureaucracy or just some sort of issue that arises that leaders have to deal with? Or do you just love everything that comes at you, deal with the things that are pain in the ass, and and or or, you know, how do you feel about being a leader in your future for yourself as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I mean, I'm human. I'm gonna have days where I just don't wanna deal with some stuff going on. Like, if there's a 1,000,000 fires going on and I just wanna rip my hair out, it's like, I can't do this today. Gonna gonna have those days. It happens.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But, I do love just leading the project and deciding the direction that, say the team goes or say technology paths that we investigate and go down. It it does it is harder for me sometimes to to pull away. Like, I I do wanna get involved and, like, actually do some coding once in a while. I I get to once in a while. I do it on the side still.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Did mention this earlier. I know we talked about it in our pre call, but I do kind of run a a DJ business on the side that I like, always use as, like, a testing ground for some of my, project some of just my skill and expertise, like, growing that. I did a lot with dotnet in there at in the Azure world. And, it's it's helped me just experiment with things in the side and understand more, especially around, cloud architecture and design. I learned a lot of that just on my own ad hoc, and I was able to apply it when I got to that startup role.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I did in the role before this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I guess the side projects are a good way to, like, flex those coding muscles still where you're not able to individually contribute to a project you're managing or leading, at least, like, on the side. Mhmm.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. They keep you\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: so that's really cool.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. They keep you up to date too with some of the the cool new tools out there as well, you know, because you don't always get to use those in your job. Yeah. Sometimes it's good to know that because then you can even say, hey. When some problem comes around, maybe it can be solved by this thing I messed with at home.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. That was that was actually gonna be my next question was what, you know, what is some new tech that you've been able to find in those side projects or in just general browsing the Internet that you find cool with others? We've talked about cryptocurrency and and Bitcoin and random types of things and AI, obviously, but are there some tools out there that you've started to uncover personally or in your regular job that you really see some potential to have a really cool use case for yourself?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I mean, Python is the new hotness everybody's learning these days, mostly just for the big data stuff, especially with Fintech. I've I've started dabbling with that. The the client expressed an interest in it. So I went on the side to start learning it on my own just so I can understand maybe from a perspective that, it can be implemented with the clients. To be fair, I I don't know if it's going to work for the clients if we're looking into it, but at least I know ahead of time before just saying, yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Let's do that. Yeah. Let's see. I I've I I've dabbled a lot with, a lot of PaaS and SaaS offerings in the cloud, mostly mostly in Azure, a little bit in AWS, using very, small services using, like, some of the functions in Azure along with, like, a front end. It's a very low cost way of creating, like, a a web application semi quickly.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Yeah. And then, of course, everything you can do with containers these days in even you can even wrap Azure functions now in containers. They're so handy. And running in, like, Linux Linux boxes, you don't even have to stand up Windows boxes anymore. It's always I mean, it's been around for a while now.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's it's gaining more traction these days by more companies, which is good, I think.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. For sure. I think it's it's funny you mentioned that too because I think for the side projects and and just for these, like, you know, self applications or learning on the side, that's actually how we hear a lot of developers in our community find out about about Directus, about us. Right? Like, open source technology.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's like, hey. Let me try this for a side project. And then all of a sudden, at some point, their their business or their company has a need that it's like, oh, this might be perfect. I've been using this for years on my, you know, DJ side business. Like, maybe it could apply to this organization I'm working with.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, that that's pretty cool to hear. I also just like a sidebar, I noticed you had some instruments in the back. Do you play guitar? Is that a guitar?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: It is a guitar. It's actually a guitar case. The guitar is in the living room. Awesome. I I, I'm not the typical dev.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I, sing and play in a band.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Dev rock star. I like it. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: That's a very common trait. We see yeah. We see a lot of developers who you have to have side hobbies as well. I I doubt any developers, hopefully, not too many, sit in front of a computer for 18 hours a day. Though it maybe it's gaming.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, that's a hobby too, but we find a lot of devs, play instruments. And maybe it's because instruments are kind of it's kind of like a puzzle and taking apart things and putting them together. Music is kind of like a puzzle like that as well. So is that something you can\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: use for your Right? Still math and language and basically the same as, like, coding just in a different if in a different way. I think we have enough musicians within Directus to form a band, but maybe we do that one day. Yep.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: That big dev shop I worked at, there was a lot of guitar players a lot. Like, some of the some of the, director level guys, they all had, like, acoustics in their office.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I remember when I got to when I moved to San Francisco, I'd gone to the the Dropbox office, and, I think the CEO was like a drummer or guitarist or something. And they had set up 2 jam rooms where people could go and, like, they had the whole full band set up, and you can go at any time and just jam out and take out your frustration or whatever you wanna do on the drums. And, I thought that's a really cool idea.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: That is a very cool idea. I like that. If I worked at a physical office anymore, I would say, yeah. Let's do that. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Yeah. Right. Right.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: What is there anything that you see that might you know, what are your takes on things like AI? Are there things out there that you see that have are overblown or misunderstood? You know? We hear a lot of people with different opinions on that or maybe a technology that you that other people use that you find overblown. Anything that you see on that side of the spectrum?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I mean, I personally think AI is a big hype right now just like, NFTs before and then, you know, Bitcoin before. I mean, Bitcoin is still big now, but, you know, at its peak, it was ginormous, you know. Yeah. Now it's slowly coming back down to earth. NFTs have pretty much died.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And AI, it's it's got its benefits. It's cool, but it's it's the way people communicate about it that's, I think, wrong. It's it's not actual AI, like the definition. It can't think by itself. It's just large language Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Large language models. It's just taking it from a very big dictionary and guessing what it should be based on a bunch of other texts that it has in this thing. It can't actually think by itself.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: And that's that's the one thing people get all crazy about, like, thinking it's gonna take everyone's job.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Like, sentient stuff. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: It's not sentient. Yeah. Can't do that yet. Someday it probably will, but it's it's not. And that's that's the one thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's it's always I always find a little bit just annoying when people freak out about it. It's like it's it's not there yet. Yeah. Do you\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: think the sentience is, like, years away, decades away? I mean, if I mean, it's hard to tell.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It's really hard to tell. I mean, it's\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I guess only the devs at OpenAI and Entropic and some of those others probably know, like, what the timeline looks like.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't even know if they're they're on the right track with that. Because, like, honestly, if they're gonna do sentience, it would have to be probably more maps like a human brain. And I don't think that's the way they're doing any of these AI model like, models. I think they're all just big dictionaries for the most part, but guess as good as mine.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. So what would be some advice you give for people on your team, for example, whom you might see leadership traits in or other people who would be watching this? If somebody feels like they have the traits to be a leader obviously, you've mentioned a book that I myself have read, and that book I do think is an incredible book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: But you've mentioned not being afraid to try things, not being afraid to fail. What is your advice to people who still might have hesitance to even try something because they are scared, Or what are some other things that you would give some advice for people looking to grow into a leadership position?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: The biggest thing is tell your boss. Like, communicate that with your boss. That's that's where I started. I told my boss I wanted to do these things, and they helped me get my position myself in the right place so I eventually could be moved up to a team lead and run up my run my first team. So you you really have to just not be scared to tell your boss and, like, move up that way.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If you're scared to tell your boss, then maybe you're not ready to lead because you you can't be scared to do that stuff. That would be the first thing. And, after that, it would be don't be scared. Don't be afraid to fail. Like, that's the biggest thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, because you're you're gonna make mistakes. You're if you especially if you're a new leader, you're just starting doing this. You're not gonna know everything off the bat. No one's perfect at this right away. It takes lots of practice.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then the last thing would just be be open to criticism and people telling you maybe that's not the best way. You have to be able to change and pivot and listen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. That's that's such good advice actually is telling your boss, telling the people who have done that journey themselves because a good leader would want their their people underneath of them who want to progress in their careers to do be able to do that. So I don't think we've had anybody mention that, but it that is probably one of the most important things that you can do is find people who have done that journey and tell them. Get that guidance.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Are there still leaders that, that you had in the past that you still stay in touch with and that maybe mentor you? Or how how valuable do you think the community that you've built, you know, over over your career is is still helping you today?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I've kinda lost touch with with, my first mentor I had. He ended up moving across the country. I haven't really kept in touch with him. But my peers, I definitely have. Like, my other, manager teammates that I had, actually brought a bunch of them in to work at that start up I was at.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Oh, awesome. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: We had a really, really good tight team there, and I've kept in touch with a lot of the other manager friends that I've made over the years, dev managers.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. And a\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: lot of them have made it even higher than me so far. So Yeah. They're really on the way too. And, like, we all have our different opinions about to how to lead a team as well. And it's good to bounce those ideas off of them to see how they would handle the situation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What would they do different? How would they handle the communication between a problem person or someone who's a little bit or having issues? You know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I I think community is huge both in work and outside of work. And Pedro and I have been at 3 different companies together. Not all we didn't move every place at the same time, but we've, you know, kept in contact as well as other people at other companies I've in contact with who I feel like I can pour into them some advice, and, they can do the same for me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I find that community is also a good answer, because Pedro and I are have been friends for a long time. So it's it's kind of good to see each other grow and encourage each other, to be able to do, you know, what we wanna do.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. And a little friendly competition as well. For sure. Especially since we're both we're both in the same role, just different territories now, so that's always thrilling.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. We we have this East Coast, West Coast, spiff or or beef, I guess, is the right word to a little bit. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Crazy. I mean, we Cool.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: No. I think by you, John. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. No. I think this is this is all really good advice. Like, I mean, I'm I'm even taking some of this to to apply to myself, obviously, as, like, an aspiring, leader in a future organization. That'd be this is really awesome help, for me as well.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, hopefully, everyone watching is, taking notes and and learning from you, but we'd love to know, like, where where can people follow you if they'd like to you know, you got LinkedIn and maybe some other projects, if you wanna just\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: take it off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: You can shout out your DJ thing if you want to.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Alright. For anyone in Buffalo. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: To be to be fair, I've kinda wound down my DJ business over for years since I haven't had time to do it with my my jobs. Yeah. So I've kinda pushed the way the band stuff's kinda taken more. That's that's more of my thing these days. But LinkedIn, you can find me at Thomas Moreno, and I'm also on Facebook and Instagram.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Same name. And, yeah, that's pretty much it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for your time today. Everyone, go follow him. We'll put his information in our notes, but go follow him for some good wisdom. You you really gave some good advice there that I've used some of it myself and some that I also will take, into account for sure.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So thanks so much for your time today, Tom.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Thanks, Tom.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Very much. Thanks, guys. Cheers. Bye.\u003C/p>","Just like a sidebar, I noticed you had some instruments in the back. Do you play guitar? Is that a guitar? It is a guitar. It's actually a guitar case. The guitar is millimeter. But I I, I'm not the typical dev. I, sing and play in a band. Dev rockstar. I like it. Yeah. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Tech Talk. We have Tom with us. Tom, would you mind introducing yourself to everyone in the audience? Just give a brief introduction, who you are, what you do, and then we'll we'll kinda dive into the conversation for today. Name's Tom Marano. I live in Buffalo, New York, and I am currently a technical lead for SMX Consulting on a, state project. Awesome. Thanks so much. We, we had a intro conversation a couple weeks ago, and you had a couple interesting stories from your background. So if you don't mind, could you give us a little bit of your background in engineering, how you got to where you are today? We'll probably interrupt you a couple times to ask some questions, but remember a couple points that I'd I'd love to see if you bring back up just about your history. So how did you get into engineering and kind of what's what's been your journey along the way? So I've always been a fan of technology. I was the kid who literally took everything apart in my parents' house. Yes, my dad how many times it took apart his, like, $1,000 stereo and tried to put it back together. Happened a lot. So always been big fan of just anything tech. Love video games, obviously, growing up. And, actually got my start really building computers and everything when I was younger and CD burners became a thing. And, I quickly learned how to, get music, but that, you know, is, the legibly as possible. Yeah. Yeah. The leg away. So quickly learn how to burn CDs, and I actually, would make CDs for people in in high school and everything and, you know, sell them to people, for, you know, 5 bucks. And, through school too, I I went on a program a little bit, did a little bit HTML and, c on the side. And then, college stuck with that as as far as school went. I did deviate a little bit. I got into a little bit of electrical, engineering a little bit for a couple years and then decided I liked programming better. So, went back and, got my bachelor's in computer science, from an online school and got my first job, programming for a health care company here in Buffalo, learning the ropes, most of it the hard way because there wasn't a ton of guidance for me at most of the places I worked early on in my career, unfortunately. It was kind of the wild west where it was just kinda me figuring it out. And also, demands the Internet wasn't as big as it is now, so it wasn't a good resource to even fall back on. So it was always hard trying to figure my way around things. And then as I kept growing in my career, jumping from position to position, I was able to find some decent mentors around me and, eventually ended up at a larger, health care comp well, benefits company here in Buffalo that was very, very well structured as far as their documentation organization. Had a really, really good agile practice in place. And, also, like, kinda gave me the guidance as far as, like, how to properly run SDLC and for an organization and just give me those guideposts as far as, like, how you can effectively create a really good application. And just good communication practices, good team camaraderie, ideas being spread openly around. It was all learned at this, one shop in Buffalo I worked at. They're actually not in existence anymore. They're called Liaison, so I'll just throw the name out there. But they were a startup here in Buffalo for years, and I was fortunate enough to meet a lot of really close dev friends when I was there. All of us have gone our separate ways and had our own successes, but it was a really good group of people to work with, and I learned a lot from them. And that's where I got my first leadership role too and, learned a lot there. One of the trainings they gave us for all of our the new team leads out there was, something called radical candor, which is a book that's out there a lot of people read. And really good, information there as how to, like, communicate with your team effectively to get get them to focus on the task at hand, find out what they need to do, but also not be a dick doing it, you know. Yeah. You don't have to roll with nigh or fist. You know, you can you can just be stern, tell them what they need to do, but also listen and understand why they might be thinking a wrong thing or in a certain direction, which could even open up your eyes if you're thinking about it wrong too. So that that just opening up that dialogue back and forth really good. And, and when my time ended there, I ended up going to a couple other places. One was a start up I worked at about a about 6 or 7 months ago. That was a new experience for me too. Never worked at a startup that was very, very small, but, ended up being brought in as, like, the second to the VP of engineering. And, eventually, he ended up leaving and, you know, a role was offered to me, and I got thrown to the wolves trying to learn how to run an entire software organization by myself. It was small still, but learned a lot of things the hard way and how to really keep things organized from a very high level. And so direct people down, empower them to run the other parts of the team that I can't have my hands in all the time because I have to think of things from the higher level and think forward as far as, like, getting the product out. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Unfortunately, that one folded too. But, I then got this role as a consultant for SMX and, Ceramic. That's awesome. Nice. I I'd love to hear a little bit about your path from you know, obviously, you've worked for the larger organizations, the startups. I'd love to hear your perspective on the difference and what the problems are, if they're more similar or more different between those, like, large scale organizations or small ones. Like, I know coming from, you know, most of my background was moving to San Francisco, working for a bunch of different startups and ad tech, all kinds of different technology startups, music as well. But then I went to work at Juniper Networks. That's actually where I met John. And, obviously, Juniper Networks is a 10,000 person organization. So it's it's fun to see the mess from, you know, the the small problems and the startup land versus, like, the more corporate bureaucracy stuff. But I'd love to hear from your perspective, like, which which you enjoyed more, and just how you kind of see the difference in those, organizations and and building and growing. Yeah. I will say the one common theme that almost every company I work for has is organization. Like, it's hands down, it's it's the number one issue that most of them have. And Yeah. Depending on who's in charge, it could go good or bad if they're willing to listen to change, if they want to move and pivot. I'm learning that a lot actually through the consulting work I'm doing now. This is my first consulting position I've ever held. And just seeing how the client is struggling with that, and they brought the team I'm with in to try to help them just use agile, which is, you know, pretty common in what most of us devs do these days. Most places use agile. Some better than others, but they at least try. And, the biggest thing there is just breaking the problem into smaller pieces, which is more digestible and doesn't seem like the world is gonna fall apart because this this problem is just so huge. Like, that's the one benefit of agile. You know? And it's if if you don't have people at the top that can see that and there's no one voicing it, you just have a bunch of, yes men all over the place just nodding their heads and saying, yep. We'll get that done. We'll get that done. The weight usually falls down on the people at the bottom doing the work, which is the devs. So then you don't get a good team of devs because they don't wanna be there and deal with that crap. You know? Yep. You know, they they they just wanna do their job most of the time and go home and feel like they've built something cool that day for the most part. You know? And that's that's like the feel I've loved. And the the first time I really got it was at that, dev shop I worked at in Buffalo for that big gap, where I learned most of what I know today. And, before that, it was a lot of chaos. Like, the IT department was always just like those guys in the corner. They do their thing. Nobody really cares. And and it it there wasn't really any organization around it. There there was just yeah. Can you guys get this done for us? You know? We need it soon. Yeah. And and being part of that, large organization that was very well structured really showed me the benefit of just working together collaboratively with people and not just saying throw it to that guy over the fence and he'll figure it out. You know? That that whole, like, planning phase of building the product that you're on became more enjoyable. Learning more about the architecture patterns became more enjoyable because I was I felt more invested in the work. Yeah. And that was that was a big thing. Like, just feeling like what I did made a difference was like a huge eye opener to me. Like, oh, this I can make a difference doing this stuff. This is cool. I have my voice matters. I'm not just the guy in the corner. You know? Yeah. It's it's always the that that's that's the thing that just made work enjoyable for me. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to go back to something that you mentioned from your childhood that kind of peaked you started your curiosity. You mentioned taking things apart and trying to rebuild them. That's something that my dad used to do. He used to take apart things back in the sixties, and, that was something that I did when I was a kid. I would take apart things, and I I would usually not rebuild them. I would usually take them apart just to see how they worked and then leave the parts everywhere. Mhmm. But I've I found that that kind of curiosity has transitioned into adulthood still with physical things. Like, if the weed whacker is broken, I'll just take it apart. I, you know, I don't wanna go buy a new one, so I'll fix it. But I find that some people are just scared to take things apart and try it, not only with physical things, but also with software or leadership or organizations or you know? As as you grow in leadership, you have to wear many hats. So do you find that that's also a similar case for you that because you were able to have that curiosity when you were young and did first off, did it continue to these days, you still kinda tinker with things like that. But do you find that the ability to be comfortable taking things apart and dissecting things has helped you grow into a leadership position both in bigger companies and start ups? Definitely. The the curiosity to not be afraid to try things on my own, that's the biggest thing I think that probably helped me become a leader right now just because I I will I'm not I'm not scared to speak out. Like, I I will let my voice be heard if I don't agree with a point. Sometimes through a fault, I might Yep. Not I might put my foot in the mouth sometimes, you know, and yeah. But at at least I'm not scared of expressing my point of view and trying to get it across. Not always right. Nobody's nobody's ever always right. That's that's the one thing And, you know, when I was younger, I was definitely more hard headed. Definitely more hard headed. As I got older, it I just slowed I would say probably slowed down is the best way to put it and wasn't so like go go go go attitude. It was more like, okay, let me listen and figure out what other people are thinking. Yeah. And try and get their point of view. Like that's that was the biggest change, beginning into the leadership role was like trying to change my mindset that way and, the the one like, I'll bring back up Radical Candor. That's one of the big points in there is to be a good listener and understand your people, understand their points of view, understand why they think this way or approach they're taking is right. You know, might not be right, but at least you can understand the point of view and can then, if they are wrong, you can then tell them, well, it's that's not exactly right because a, b and c. Because you can then understand why the thing is. You don't just yell at them and say, no. You have to do it this way. You know, you you could talk to people that way. They usually can come to some, rapport with them a little bit easier than just saying get this done or you're in trouble or something. Yeah. There's a differ difference between a boss and a leader. So Mhmm. I I totally agree. Do you find those types of yeah. We hope our boss isn't listening, but, but, yeah, yeah, do you do you find that you're able to then also see those types of characteristics in people that you're now leading? Or when you were climbing the ranks, did you see those traits in nobody else, and that's why it was potentially easier for you to also climb into leadership? And then do you see that those types of traits in those that are around you, whether they're other leaders or people who work for you? Definitely for sure. It's it's not everyone either. Like, there's there's a lot of devs, obviously, who are very introverted. It's just the nature of what we do. You know, a lot of our stuff that we work on is solo by ourselves, and that's the way a lot of us like it. Not everyone's born to be a leader. They just, like, wanna get their work done or work on something cool by themselves. Don't really care too much about anything else. I definitely have some of those on my team right now. I will say they are sometimes the hardest ones to manage because you have to pull information out of them most of the time. But the ones that do have that curiosity to go the extra mile without having to be told exactly what to do, Those ones definitely have those traits in them because they they wanna go the extra mile. They wanna look at the next step without having to be told to go look at the next step. They they wanna understand why they just did and created the, went through the business roles. They just added into the app. They wanna know why they had to do that. So they're going to go down the path, understand the whole process, the whole business process they just had to implement and not just the little piece they worked on. Yeah. And that that helps give them a bigger picture so that they can maybe go into designing a whole system next time and then leading that design and so on and so on. Just building those steps because they have that curiosity to get their head around the whole thing, which is, I think, another part of being a good leader too, to understand everything involved with the processes that you're managing and going through. Because if you if you don't understand that, you're just some guy talking in the back telling people what to do all day. Right. Just issuing directives. Yeah. How do you when you identify these traits in folks, as their leader, like, how do you take those skills and and build on to them to, you know, train the next, you know, generation of leaders or or help build them into something like your role that you have now? Slowly giving them more responsibility, I think, is the first thing. Like, gaining that trust with them, and even letting letting them fail too sometimes is good because they need to be able to deal with some of the failures too that come with it if they maybe pick a bad decision. Learning how to bounce back from that or pivot to a different direction if they realize, oh, this isn't gonna work. We gotta try something else. But, yeah, it's slowly giving them more and more responsibilities and eventually even letting them lead certain projects or whatever you happen to be on. That's that's a good step to try to let them spread their wings a little bit Yeah. I think. Do you ever do you ever miss being an or do you still individually contribute, or do you ever miss not being a leader? Are there other times where you're you just say, man, I wish I was just plugging away at code or or developing something today and not having to deal with bureaucracy or just some sort of issue that arises that leaders have to deal with? Or do you just love everything that comes at you, deal with the things that are pain in the ass, and and or or, you know, how do you feel about being a leader in your future for yourself as well? I mean, I'm human. I'm gonna have days where I just don't wanna deal with some stuff going on. Like, if there's a 1,000,000 fires going on and I just wanna rip my hair out, it's like, I can't do this today. Gonna gonna have those days. It happens. But, I do love just leading the project and deciding the direction that, say the team goes or say technology paths that we investigate and go down. It it does it is harder for me sometimes to to pull away. Like, I I do wanna get involved and, like, actually do some coding once in a while. I I get to once in a while. I do it on the side still. Did mention this earlier. I know we talked about it in our pre call, but I do kind of run a a DJ business on the side that I like, always use as, like, a testing ground for some of my, project some of just my skill and expertise, like, growing that. I did a lot with dotnet in there at in the Azure world. And, it's it's helped me just experiment with things in the side and understand more, especially around, cloud architecture and design. I learned a lot of that just on my own ad hoc, and I was able to apply it when I got to that startup role. I did in the role before this. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the side projects are a good way to, like, flex those coding muscles still where you're not able to individually contribute to a project you're managing or leading, at least, like, on the side. Mhmm. Yeah. They keep you so that's really cool. Yeah. They keep you up to date too with some of the the cool new tools out there as well, you know, because you don't always get to use those in your job. Yeah. Sometimes it's good to know that because then you can even say, hey. When some problem comes around, maybe it can be solved by this thing I messed with at home. Yeah. That was that was actually gonna be my next question was what, you know, what is some new tech that you've been able to find in those side projects or in just general browsing the Internet that you find cool with others? We've talked about cryptocurrency and and Bitcoin and random types of things and AI, obviously, but are there some tools out there that you've started to uncover personally or in your regular job that you really see some potential to have a really cool use case for yourself? I mean, Python is the new hotness everybody's learning these days, mostly just for the big data stuff, especially with Fintech. I've I've started dabbling with that. The the client expressed an interest in it. So I went on the side to start learning it on my own just so I can understand maybe from a perspective that, it can be implemented with the clients. To be fair, I I don't know if it's going to work for the clients if we're looking into it, but at least I know ahead of time before just saying, yeah. Let's do that. Yeah. Let's see. I I've I I've dabbled a lot with, a lot of PaaS and SaaS offerings in the cloud, mostly mostly in Azure, a little bit in AWS, using very, small services using, like, some of the functions in Azure along with, like, a front end. It's a very low cost way of creating, like, a a web application semi quickly. Yeah. And then, of course, everything you can do with containers these days in even you can even wrap Azure functions now in containers. They're so handy. And running in, like, Linux Linux boxes, you don't even have to stand up Windows boxes anymore. It's always I mean, it's been around for a while now. It's it's gaining more traction these days by more companies, which is good, I think. Yeah. For sure. I think it's it's funny you mentioned that too because I think for the side projects and and just for these, like, you know, self applications or learning on the side, that's actually how we hear a lot of developers in our community find out about about Directus, about us. Right? Like, open source technology. It's like, hey. Let me try this for a side project. And then all of a sudden, at some point, their their business or their company has a need that it's like, oh, this might be perfect. I've been using this for years on my, you know, DJ side business. Like, maybe it could apply to this organization I'm working with. So, that that's pretty cool to hear. I also just like a sidebar, I noticed you had some instruments in the back. Do you play guitar? Is that a guitar? It is a guitar. It's actually a guitar case. The guitar is in the living room. Awesome. I I, I'm not the typical dev. I, sing and play in a band. Dev rock star. I like it. Yeah. That's a very common trait. We see yeah. We see a lot of developers who you have to have side hobbies as well. I I doubt any developers, hopefully, not too many, sit in front of a computer for 18 hours a day. Though it maybe it's gaming. You know, that's a hobby too, but we find a lot of devs, play instruments. And maybe it's because instruments are kind of it's kind of like a puzzle and taking apart things and putting them together. Music is kind of like a puzzle like that as well. So is that something you can use for your Right? Still math and language and basically the same as, like, coding just in a different if in a different way. I think we have enough musicians within Directus to form a band, but maybe we do that one day. Yep. That big dev shop I worked at, there was a lot of guitar players a lot. Like, some of the some of the, director level guys, they all had, like, acoustics in their office. Yeah. I remember when I got to when I moved to San Francisco, I'd gone to the the Dropbox office, and, I think the CEO was like a drummer or guitarist or something. And they had set up 2 jam rooms where people could go and, like, they had the whole full band set up, and you can go at any time and just jam out and take out your frustration or whatever you wanna do on the drums. And, I thought that's a really cool idea. That is a very cool idea. I like that. If I worked at a physical office anymore, I would say, yeah. Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. What is there anything that you see that might you know, what are your takes on things like AI? Are there things out there that you see that have are overblown or misunderstood? You know? We hear a lot of people with different opinions on that or maybe a technology that you that other people use that you find overblown. Anything that you see on that side of the spectrum? I mean, I personally think AI is a big hype right now just like, NFTs before and then, you know, Bitcoin before. I mean, Bitcoin is still big now, but, you know, at its peak, it was ginormous, you know. Yeah. Now it's slowly coming back down to earth. NFTs have pretty much died. And AI, it's it's got its benefits. It's cool, but it's it's the way people communicate about it that's, I think, wrong. It's it's not actual AI, like the definition. It can't think by itself. It's just large language Yeah. Large language models. It's just taking it from a very big dictionary and guessing what it should be based on a bunch of other texts that it has in this thing. It can't actually think by itself. Yeah. And that's that's the one thing people get all crazy about, like, thinking it's gonna take everyone's job. Yeah. Like, sentient stuff. Yeah. It's not sentient. Yeah. Can't do that yet. Someday it probably will, but it's it's not. And that's that's the one thing. It's it's always I always find a little bit just annoying when people freak out about it. It's like it's it's not there yet. Yeah. Do you think the sentience is, like, years away, decades away? I mean, if I mean, it's hard to tell. Yeah. It's really hard to tell. I mean, it's I guess only the devs at OpenAI and Entropic and some of those others probably know, like, what the timeline looks like. Yeah. I don't even know if they're they're on the right track with that. Because, like, honestly, if they're gonna do sentience, it would have to be probably more maps like a human brain. And I don't think that's the way they're doing any of these AI model like, models. I think they're all just big dictionaries for the most part, but guess as good as mine. Yeah. So what would be some advice you give for people on your team, for example, whom you might see leadership traits in or other people who would be watching this? If somebody feels like they have the traits to be a leader obviously, you've mentioned a book that I myself have read, and that book I do think is an incredible book. Mhmm. But you've mentioned not being afraid to try things, not being afraid to fail. What is your advice to people who still might have hesitance to even try something because they are scared, Or what are some other things that you would give some advice for people looking to grow into a leadership position? The biggest thing is tell your boss. Like, communicate that with your boss. That's that's where I started. I told my boss I wanted to do these things, and they helped me get my position myself in the right place so I eventually could be moved up to a team lead and run up my run my first team. So you you really have to just not be scared to tell your boss and, like, move up that way. If you're scared to tell your boss, then maybe you're not ready to lead because you you can't be scared to do that stuff. That would be the first thing. And, after that, it would be don't be scared. Don't be afraid to fail. Like, that's the biggest thing. Like, because you're you're gonna make mistakes. You're if you especially if you're a new leader, you're just starting doing this. You're not gonna know everything off the bat. No one's perfect at this right away. It takes lots of practice. And then the last thing would just be be open to criticism and people telling you maybe that's not the best way. You have to be able to change and pivot and listen. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. That's that's such good advice actually is telling your boss, telling the people who have done that journey themselves because a good leader would want their their people underneath of them who want to progress in their careers to do be able to do that. So I don't think we've had anybody mention that, but it that is probably one of the most important things that you can do is find people who have done that journey and tell them. Get that guidance. Mhmm. Yeah. Are there still leaders that, that you had in the past that you still stay in touch with and that maybe mentor you? Or how how valuable do you think the community that you've built, you know, over over your career is is still helping you today? I've kinda lost touch with with, my first mentor I had. He ended up moving across the country. I haven't really kept in touch with him. But my peers, I definitely have. Like, my other, manager teammates that I had, actually brought a bunch of them in to work at that start up I was at. And Oh, awesome. Yeah. We had a really, really good tight team there, and I've kept in touch with a lot of the other manager friends that I've made over the years, dev managers. Yeah. And a lot of them have made it even higher than me so far. So Yeah. They're really on the way too. And, like, we all have our different opinions about to how to lead a team as well. And it's good to bounce those ideas off of them to see how they would handle the situation. What would they do different? How would they handle the communication between a problem person or someone who's a little bit or having issues? You know? Yeah. Yeah. I I think community is huge both in work and outside of work. And Pedro and I have been at 3 different companies together. Not all we didn't move every place at the same time, but we've, you know, kept in contact as well as other people at other companies I've in contact with who I feel like I can pour into them some advice, and, they can do the same for me. So I find that community is also a good answer, because Pedro and I are have been friends for a long time. So it's it's kind of good to see each other grow and encourage each other, to be able to do, you know, what we wanna do. Yeah. And a little friendly competition as well. For sure. Especially since we're both we're both in the same role, just different territories now, so that's always thrilling. Right. Yeah. We we have this East Coast, West Coast, spiff or or beef, I guess, is the right word to a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. I mean, we Cool. No. I think by you, John. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think this is this is all really good advice. Like, I mean, I'm I'm even taking some of this to to apply to myself, obviously, as, like, an aspiring, leader in a future organization. That'd be this is really awesome help, for me as well. So, hopefully, everyone watching is, taking notes and and learning from you, but we'd love to know, like, where where can people follow you if they'd like to you know, you got LinkedIn and maybe some other projects, if you wanna just take it off. You can shout out your DJ thing if you want to. Alright. For anyone in Buffalo. Yeah. To be to be fair, I've kinda wound down my DJ business over for years since I haven't had time to do it with my my jobs. Yeah. So I've kinda pushed the way the band stuff's kinda taken more. That's that's more of my thing these days. But LinkedIn, you can find me at Thomas Moreno, and I'm also on Facebook and Instagram. Same name. And, yeah, that's pretty much it. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for your time today. Everyone, go follow him. We'll put his information in our notes, but go follow him for some good wisdom. You you really gave some good advice there that I've used some of it myself and some that I also will take, into account for sure. So thanks so much for your time today, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Very much. Thanks, guys. Cheers. Bye.","published",[145,155,166],{"people_id":146},{"id":147,"first_name":148,"last_name":149,"avatar":150,"bio":151,"links":152},"b2b78a10-69a2-47bc-9f83-f12289622bcb","Tom","Morano","6bd12220-dc85-43f6-ae53-50ea10760e1a","Technical Lead at SMX",[153],{"url":137,"service":154},"linkedin",{"people_id":156},{"id":157,"first_name":158,"last_name":159,"avatar":160,"bio":161,"links":162},"9610ff1c-bcfd-4e59-9ab8-17ff5f567ccb","John","Daniels","5100c5aa-0455-48eb-bae3-4380bfd82ea2","Customer Success at Directus",[163],{"url":164,"service":165},"https://directus.io/team/john-daniels","website",{"people_id":167},{"id":168,"first_name":169,"last_name":170,"avatar":171,"bio":161,"links":172},"6057329f-2147-4f46-913f-d6b151dc1bf1","Pedro","Pizarro","7940df6a-db0a-4afe-81bb-a136ef93d229",[173],{"url":174,"service":165},"https://directus.io/team/pedro-pizarro",[],{"id":177,"number":178,"year":179,"episodes":180,"show":185},"53382dd3-4dd7-44f0-9102-a257b4760115",1,"2023",[181,182,183,184,122],"68c8fd05-ac09-4485-aa57-bb8d74a26699","f8864aad-281c-4921-9722-3b6b29d57eb4","83739ed2-e3ac-485c-97fa-f683db114386","836d591e-0f5c-47db-9756-c87d97283c02",{"title":186,"tile":187},"Trace Talks","c3914dd2-0a22-4214-a2ac-8314b7a56c27",{"id":189,"slug":190,"season":191,"vimeo_id":192,"description":193,"tile":194,"length":195,"resources":8,"people":8,"episode_number":178,"published":196,"title":197,"video_transcript_html":198,"video_transcript_text":199,"content":8,"seo":200,"status":143,"episode_people":201,"recommendations":205},"5755bb0e-40d5-49c3-bc89-29fb576a4d37","naz-delam","814d854d-db03-4f92-99ba-d825df61fb36","948642030","In this episode of Trace Talks, engineering leader Naz Delam shares her journey to LinkedIn, highlighting key leadership lessons she's learned along the way – from challenges of leading teams during tech layoffs to empowering teams through autonomy and ownership.\n\nNaz also offers practical advice on handling layoffs, continuous learning, and effective networking. \n\nThis episode is a MUST-LISTEN for any aspiring leaders in the tech industry.","64ce77c4-fc3c-4b5b-b344-771d6b867731",52,"2024-05-30","Naz Delam, Software Engineering Manager at LinkedIn","\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Oh, hey. It's a visit from the cat. I was hoping it would show up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Today, we have Naz. Naz, first off, congratulations on becoming a naturalized US citizen today. That's very exciting, very exciting. Sometimes I take that for granted. So it's very exciting when people I know have that happen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But, yeah, we'll we'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you let the people know just a brief background into who you are, maybe just a brief introduction into where you are, and then we'll get into the conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Absolutely. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon wherever you are in the world. My name is Naz. I am currently an engineering leader at LinkedIn, leading media, and, previously worked as as a engineering manager and software engineer at Netflix.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>My background to tech was very traditional, so studied bachelor and master's, in computer engineering and afterwards, systems engineering. So, yeah, it's been, 10 plus years that I am in San Francisco Bay Area, and I got my first job here right after school.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for that quick intro. As this is kind of a a a podcast focus on leadership, I figured we'd start on that leadership trend. Right now, obviously, in in tech and even starting outside of tech, there's a lot of organizational changes happening and tech layoffs and everything that's, you know, kind of on the front the front of everyone's mind.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I guess let's let's kinda start off on, an interesting take. You know, what what are some of the challenges that you see in today's market, in today's, environment being a leadership at a company like LinkedIn in in in in a tech, you know, a tech world where there's a lot of instability and uncertainty?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's that's a great question. Unstability and uncertainty. Being comfortable with both of those and making those a norm, I guess that's the biggest change that we are seeing. And to frame it better, maybe it's just being more comfortable with a lot of change as it's coming your way and be more flexible to perform, knowing all of these uncertainties around you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, as a leader, it's it's very hard sometimes to motivate the team and uplevel engineers when you are in this situation, an industry that everyone are hesitant to put their 100% in. So how do you do that? How do you motivate people? Well, you know, things around you are so chaotic. People are not sure if they're gonna get laid off or not.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There is not more of certainty to the mission of the company. I guess, like, couple of things we are doing as a company is being very transparent with engineers if we have layoffs or not. So we are very clear that we don't have layoffs currently. If we know there's more layoffs, we'll let everyone know. So people will rest assure that there's no surprises.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think it's been happening mostly in a lot of big takes as a surprise, which just has to change for people. It needs to be very more transparent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. That's that's a good point. And I think that, like, you know, especially at start ups and smaller companies, these things can turn on a dime on people, especially when, you know, maybe the company isn't doing so well and people get shocked. And in those environments, I've seen a lot of managers and and colleagues get together and at least share information so that they can prepare for those next steps. Is that something that you've seen happen before?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, how would you recommend the first step if you do get laid off? What that first step is in finding that new position is is, like, would you recommend applying to a bunch of, you know, jobs that you're interested in or really reaching out to that network?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I will recommend take a 2 day off for yourself and do a self reflection. I've been through a layoff. So my last job at Netflix, I was laid off. And, I was on both sides of the coin, and seen both sides. So it's it's hard to get laid off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's never easy, especially if you're performing and you're a great engineer and you're really asking yourself questions why. You know, I have dedicated to this amount of time to this company mission. I have put my all 100% in to develop features. I cared for our users, and now you're telling me to go. And this is not a great feeling for anybody.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I would say the first thing you do is just taking time off and self reflect and try to understand that this is not you, and try to think about your strengths. So what are the things that I'm great at? Because a lot of times when things happen, I see people start to blame themselves and really focusing on shortcomings. These are the things I don't have. Maybe that's why I got laid off because maybe I wasn't great at this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Oh, how can I find a job now? I'm not great at that. But instead of that, try to be focusing on your strength and see the things that you are getting hired for at the current role and then what are the values that you can take into the next role and next company. And, you know, I coach a lot of engineers nowadays, and I always even say to my team, my direct reports that you're not bound to any company. Your career is you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So when you go to a company, don't bound yourself to a company specifically. Think longer term about your career and know that layoff can happen anytime. So you enter a company. You do your best. You're bringing value with your talent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If that's an exit, then that's a goodbye in in in different form, and you're taking those values and strengths to another company and bring more value for more people around the world. And that's not the end of your career journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah. And Yeah. Go ahead, John.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I've that brings up a good point, and I'll I'll branch us into more of some questions around your leadership style because I I was watching a podcast that you were on previously this morning, and you mentioned something really interesting. You said you don't wanna be a leader on a team of followers. You wanna be a leader on a team of leaders. And so what what's some of the advice in the in the typical regular day to day that you provide to your team?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? Because it sounds like you want to train your team to be self sufficient, hire smart people who can solve problems, and you wanna lead people who are leaders, which in the end makes you a more valuable employee anyway. So what are some of those other values that you have as a leader? Number 1, leading a team of leaders, but what are some other things that you train your team, some values that you train your team to have so that they're just a more valuable employee in general?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm. I wouldn't call it a valuable employee. I would call them call them great engineers, who can go to any any company or even build their own products. Yeah. That would that was a concept I, read a book called turn the ship around.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's just an amazing leadership book, and, it talks about, how do you empower your team to make decisions on on their own. And that's so true. And it's a very easy statement, but it's not easy in practice. There's a lot of things required for that to be able to do that for your team. Autonomy.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, how do you, as a leader, get all the information to the team that they need? How do you onboard them onto the mission vision? How do you take them to the front lines, how do you get them areas of ownership. And at the same time, as you are in the back of the things, they're also accountable for their work because you don't wanna leave everyone and go. Not everyone feel accountable.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People sometimes just leave things, and they don't follow-up. So how do they be very proactive, and feel ownership of their area? So I think, like, the most important thing is if the person thinks and feels that they are creating the impact and the impact is visible, they feel more ownership to putting in the work. So for me, also, how do I recognize this engineer? How do I shed light on their work in different forums?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Let's say, like, if if I like, it's a upper leadership type of forum. How do I present their work? How do I have them come and demo and show their work? So they feel they own it, and they feel the impact and importance of their work. And for me, not all the projects have the huge, huge impact.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So how do you actually empower engineers to feel that sense of ownership even on projects which is like migration? And, I think for us is whenever we wanna do something, we wanna think about the why of doing it, and it's one of LinkedIn's engineering principles. We need to have a very strong why. If you have an initiative, you have an idea why are you wanna do this. And if that why is very strong, that correlates to impact.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It means there is an impact. And if there is an impact and if I'm as a leader being able to give all the credit to the person who's doing the work, showcase all the light on that person, you know, and then really reward them based on their impact that they're having. They will feel the sense of ownership, and they actually execute pretty well. So that's what it says in that book is that also in addition to this, give them all the knowledge they need to perform and, have them make mistakes. I think that's one of the scariest things as a leader to leave the team to make mistakes, and it needs to be controlled mistakes.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So you you need to know when you can leave like an engineer. You know what's the right solution is, but you're not saying that. You you have them take their path. You have them make mistakes, and you have them learn from those. And a lot of time when people become managers newly, they try to control that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Right? They try to make sure everything is done right on the team, and there's no area of mistake. But mistakes are very crucial for people development. So as a leader, we need to be able to have those controlled risk so people can make mistakes on areas that's it's not gonna fall apart.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I love where you talked about sense of ownership, and I think we've talked about that a few times on this podcast. Obviously, everyone feeling like they're making an impact, feeling like they're driving themselves and the organization forward. But on the flip side of that, you know, especially in today's market, like, we were talking about with the layoffs and the reorganizations that can sometimes happen at that level that it almost doesn't matter the contribution that you made. Like, how do you coach someone through that?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Does that bring down morale if they see maybe half their, you know, half their colleagues have been laid off and now they're still at the company? But they're you know, they recognize that sense of ownership, and they're like, well, they didn't do anything wrong either. How do you keep morale high? How do you coach people through that?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I think one of the important things is to acknowledge all the emotions. Right? Is that it is hard to be in that situation. We had a situation like that last year where I think a bunch of our engineers were laid off late last year. And it is it is hard.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's scary. And, you know, as a leader, you need to acknowledge that. When you go in a room and say, well, everything is butterfly and sunflowers, and we're good, so let's get to work, people doesn't feel like that. Instead, get to a room and say, yes. I feel very bad today.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I, myself, am scared. I, myself, am not happy. I need actually some time to get my, you know, self up and running to be able to execute at my current job as a leader. So take that time too. It is heartbreaking to see people go around us, and I think as you're acknowledging that emotions, people feel more safe.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People feel that they're in an environment that their leaders feel the same as they are, and no one is trying to, you know, hide things from them or display things in a different way as they are. And that transparency, even on the feelings level, will help people navigate these situations. And be very frank with people. I mean, this is an environment we are in at tech where layoffs are happening. It's been happening forever.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>This is not something new. When you sign a contract with a company, you sign that you can exit anytime, and they can let you go anytime. And this is a norm, and I don't think people should really bound themselves to these things and things like this is the end, and all my contributions are gone. This is not the case. Even for people, the they got laid off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There have been many instances that we help them find their new role, so we are there for them. This wasn't something they have done. They are great engineers. There were many instances that I referred them to different places. We tried our best to find them new places, and, you know, business is business, and I think that's for people to understand.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If CEOs of companies getting laid off, you know, it's it's okay for employees to get laid off. So it's it's a norm. I guess, like, in that situation, just to summarize, just be very honest with people. Talk about their feelings. Acknowledge.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So there is the 7 stages of grief that we all know. You have to walk your team through that 7 stages. And don't do that in one day. Day 1, every stage in one day, and then in the 7th day, people are back to their norm. If you're actually acknowledging the emotion, give them time to come back.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Take that anger. Create spaces for people to talk to you, and have them feel safe by you opening up yourself as a leader and talking about how you feel about this. People continue to open up and just put out everything that they're feeling. There would be anger. There would be resentment.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There would be lack of trust for a while. The morale will get impact, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's the reality of the layoffs. And the companies who are doing that, they know that it will have an impact, Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Be prepared for productivity. Yeah. Productivity to drop, morale to drop, but but, you know, maybe after a few weeks, it returns back to the norm if you can manage through it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Be prepared because you can expect your team to perform the same way they've been. It's it's grief.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You you know, human beings, we can perform the same way. It's it's exactly the last process.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's take a step back in your journey because I'm always curious how people find their way to leadership, roles that they've had. And I believe part of your story is going through some of these transitions at previous companies that you're in. So I guess let's kind of take take it back to the beginning of your engineering journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, what were you doing? What were some of those roles that you had? And what does that transition from an individual contributor to leadership look like\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: for you? Sure. I wrote a blog post on this as my story called transition to leadership like a butterfly, if if you anyone wanna read, in detail. But I guess I started my engineering journey, like, years back as a back end engineer. So I was doing Java.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That time was Spring, Khybernet, all these technologies, and I had a lot of pivots. So I'm very curious person, and I wanted to pick up different things. So I pivoted from back end to front end. And then and decide, I did things like machine learning. I worked on self driving cars, did a little bit of AI here and there, studied system engineering while I was working, worked a little bit on NASA.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So so many different branches I had, where I was an engineer. So I wasn't only doing my work. I was very active even outside of my work. And then during that time, as I was exploring different things, was I got this role to becoming a software architect, which was one of the most interesting and fruitful roles I had as an engineer where I could work on, like, a system end to end and work with so many amazing people who had many, many years of experience. So as an engineer, I definitely had experience with all over, all the technologies that we have, across the stack.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think that made me very, versatile and being able to shift very quickly from, like, back end to front end or using different technologies and, bringing systems upgraded systems and having system understanding. How do you build complex systems that are highly aligned and loosely coupled? So how do you, like, handle risk? How do you test very well? So, that's part of my engineering journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But things change. You know? As I started, I was very more technical, and then all of the softer skills getting added as requirement for my role. Right? How do I run a meeting effectively?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And as I grew more and more, I had to deal with more and more people, and that people side got way more interesting for me. So, I talk about my library when I, when I write that blog post where, initially, most of my books were technical. When I started my engineering journey, you can find my library from a programming books. And then as this continues, there's, like, addition of softer skills book getting added to my library. And I would see myself reading those books more more than my technical books, and sometimes I ask myself, like, am I doing the right thing?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Am I, like, going away from my path and doing something new? But, I could say, like, my mindset as my library kind of get transitioned to the people side of it. And over time, I find that more interesting because if I can enable and empower people, and I've been told many times that this is your strength, If I can do that, I would have way more impact than just running myself and executing myself.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Mhmm. Do\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: you find that curiosity that you you found for evolving, you know, soft skills and and newer technologies? That that's definitely a theme that we've heard from almost everyone that we've talked to on this podcast, the curiosity to try new things and then also not be afraid to fail when you're trying new things, but just that curiosity in general. Do you find that to be a crucial a crucial trait to have for a leader? And if so, is that something that you you try and cultivate with your, oh, hey. Visit from the cat.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I was hoping he'd show up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I'm gonna show up. Show up. Yeah. Is that a trait that you is is that a trait that you cultivate in people that you're leading who who also show that they wanna be leaders? If they don't have that trait or if they do have it, is that something that you cultivate with them?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I mean, people have different personalities. That's the thing I've learned, and not everyone wanna branch this many branches, to be honest. Some people like to go in-depth in one thing, and they stay in one thing, and they they, like, create expertise. Some people like me, they they just like to explore, and they gets maybe bored. I I would like I feel whenever I feel comfortable, and I learn something and I know I'm good at it right now and I'm comfortable with it, now I start to, like, seek something else.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I challenge myself constantly. Not everyone is like that, and it's okay, not to be like that. I think people have very, very different personalities. And, if they are the opposite of the spectrum, doesn't mean that they're not successful, and they can't be greatly less. But for me, specifically, my personality was in that spectrum of, like, I I don't stay in one zone when I'm comfortable, and I'm constantly want to learn something new.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Every year, I pick a new technology to learn out of nowhere. Like, this year, I was looking at quantum computing. Is it related to my job? No. It's it's like out of nowhere I do learn it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's interesting to me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Is there any re that's a that's a hefty, hefty topic to start learning. Is there a reason you chose that, or you just you saw it, you had almost no idea what it was, and you just wanted to start exploring it?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Exactly. I saw it. I had no idea. I read things about it, how it solves problem, like, developing new drugs and proteins and working on human DNA, and I'm like, oh my god. This is this is super interesting.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>How does this work? And I started, like, listening to YouTube videos and then reading books about, like, quantum mechanics. So, yeah, I think it's just a curiosity and me wanting to pushing myself constantly out of my comfort zone and challenge myself. I feel that I'm if I feel like I'm in one place, I feel I'm stagnating. So it's it's all about personalities.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, we have different personality traits. I think my my my personality, I'm more of, like, an alpha personality where I have, like, very extreme growth mindset. But people have, like, different spectrums. Some people are very focused on one thing, and they're really great at it, and they don't go out of it. So I think that's totally fine to be in a different spectrum.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>As long as you're growing, it should be totally fine.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's also a future it sounds like it's also a future focus too. Right? Curious about what comes next. I mean, people studying people have been studying, obviously, AI and large language models for, you know, years already.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>We just, as the public, come to see it now. So maybe, like you're saying, quantum computing is that next frontier in 10, 20 years that sort of becomes more more mainstream.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: So, yeah, that that future focus is is interesting. I heard somewhere that, like, I guess at some point, quantum computers can essentially break all encrypted passwords that we have today. So it it could be an interesting problem to solve for tomorrow. Right? Like, how do we secure devices if not with, you know, with passwords and things?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that one thing that it was around 2015 when I went to ACM of ours. I don't know if anyone familiar. Association of Computer Machinery is, like, one of the most prestigious computer science, association, and this award is, like, a Nobel Prize for scientists. So that year, I think, was Bernice Lee who invented the Internet who got the award, and it was at the award ceremony.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there was a committee who is protecting our data. And it was very interesting to me because all of our data now is binary. And with quantum computing, be the future, and it's not transferrable, how are how are our data gonna be read with quantum machines? Who's gonna protect it? Who's gonna keep a repository of all of our data?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And it was surprising to me that there is a whole committee who's responsible for taking care of our data, you know, as a society. And, they're thinking about all of these things. It's like, how do we transfer this data to quantum later on? So people can look at their images, or look at their binary data. But, yeah, if when you go to these places and you see people forward thinking these many levels, you'll be amazed to hear, like, there are people actually thinking about this thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. And I also assume one thing I've heard you talk about in other podcasts as well is networking, especially as you just wanna become a better a better engineer, better employee, networking with people. And I'm sure those types of events also introduce you to people with really interesting things that they say and and even new topics that you can then, 5 years later, start to investigate yourself. And so what's the for for this podcast and for the people listening here, what is the value of networking that you, you know, find yourself and that you train for or or you you pass on to your mentees as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, a couple of things. First of all, don't network because you want something from people. Network before you want something from people.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So beat those relationships before it comes to, like, looking for a job or, you know, changing your role. And, I always call it vertical and horizontal net networking. So when you are at a role in in your company, you need both of them. So you start the first three months of your role to 1st 6 months doing vertical networking. And by vertical, I mean your team, your manager, your skip manager, and everyone in the chain, and your close partners, so anyone you work with day to day base.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So build relationship with those people. But after that 6 months, you start to do horizon networking, which means going outside your team to other teams that you don't know about. A lot of companies have so many tools. Like, I remember when I was at Netflix, there was this coffee chat where you could register, and you get randomly, matched with someone across the company and you could get a coffee with. At LinkedIn, we have, like, similar tools that you can go in and, you know, chat with people across the company.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If your company doesn't have 1, be the leader and build 1, so people can chat with each other. Or just simply, you know, ping people for, like, a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about them, introduce yourself, and, just connect with them. And then later on, you will be surprised how those people would show up in your journey, in your career. Not everyone have to give you a job or refer you. They will inspire you in so many ways as you're networking with them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You may have a question or you may get an idea and you can run by them or they would just be your advocates. They know you somehow. And when there is an opportunity, they remember you, and they put your name up on the table. So that's that's a thing. Always remember.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Don't forget that horizontal networking. People usually go to companies, and they just rely on the vertical networking. They don't know really anyone across the company, and it's similar outside. As I mentioned, your career is not bound to a company, so think the same thing. Vertical networking in your area, horizontal networking outside your area, network with recruiters in different companies, network with people outside your field.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>LinkedIn right now make it super easy for everybody. I think 10 years was their LinkedIn, but it wasn't as active as now where you could find people this easily. Now we are getting to the area of conferences being back again after COVID. So attended conferences, meetups, and chat with people, learn about them, and they will learn about you too. So that's a that's a good thing to be at.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there is so many things nowadays. I mean, you see all of these mentorship platforms that's showing up, which wasn't there 10 years ago when we started. That's a great way of networking, getting a mentor. It's a next level because that person is investing in you. And if someone is invest in you, they're way more willingly advocating for you later on than someone who just you meet in a conference.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So go on on these platforms. You know, there's a ton of them across the industry. Maybe get to the session with different mentors, people you aspire to be like them or people you they're ahead of you and you wanna get there. Learn how do they get there and ask for their advice. And then later on, when you build these relationships and talk to so many different people, they will invest in you and advocate for you whenever you are in your career.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. You mentioned LinkedIn was a good resource for that. Obviously, you know, that's bringing the entire network together and having making it easier for people to just reach out. In the past, like, I found it maybe awkward or or scary almost to reach out to people for advice. Like, what would you when you're reaching out to someone that doesn't know you at all completely cold and wanting to network with them, what are some tips that you would recommend on that initial sort of cold message?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I won't really do that. Right? I won't reach out to someone I don't know, and I don't advise that. That's why I'm saying, like, network before you actually need an advice, like, have a really broad people that you know. I won't send a cold message to someone and say, hey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I need an advice, and I know need 30 minutes of your time. People are super busy, especially people who are in better stages that can advise you. Right? Go get a mentor. Right now, there is so many ways of doing that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's all of these platforms. There's Play Doh, Mentor Cruise, MentorMe. I mean, there's so many of them out there that you can find these people on those platforms actually offering you time. So, go find those platforms and find those people, and that's respecting their time and also going there professionally and getting the advice you need. And that will build trust between you and that person because your mentor is now trusting you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you can send the cold message after you have couple of sessions with this person and say, you know what? I need an advice on this. What do I do? And they will always there for you. Like, I'll tell all my mentees, like, I'm your all time advocate.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Anytime I mentor, I'll be there for them, like, through their career. So, yes, it can happen. People, like, send them cold messages and say, hey. Can you make a referral? And I'm like, I I don't even know you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And that makes me question your judgment because how would you want me someone who actually doesn't know you at all to refer you to a role versus someone who's coming in and say, look. I'm looking for a job, and these are the things I wanna get better at. I have a good understanding of myself. Can you advise me how can I find a job? And then at that stage, when I have couple of chats with that person, may mock interview them, I know how their level and how they are.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I actually myself refer them to places that I think it's a great fit for them. So it happens very naturally when you build the relationship the right way. I am not a believer in those cold messages. Sometimes they work, but, I mostly believe in building relationships that are strong with people that have really good foundation and trust.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. That's that's really good advice. I think it's crucial these days to kind of build those are you when you open a position, are Are you when you open a position, are you first thinking of people who have built that type of a relationship with you, whether they're, you know, someone who would fit the position? And then, are you reaching out to your network of people saying, do you know somebody who might fill this position or might fit this position? I guess, which one or both?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, do you look for both of those types of sources for people when you're scaling your teams?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. So I try to be fair because I don't wanna only look at the people I know and advocate for them, only because I wanna give opportunity to people who I don't know and they can apply to the role. So we I usually build a pool of people where 10 to 20% of them are people I know and I know it's a good fit for this role, and the rest are opportunity for other people to apply to the role. And I take a look at those resumes too. But because I know these people, because I invested them, when a role pops up, I have them top of my mind, and I ping them that this is a role that's popped up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If you're interested, apply. But I'm not giving them extra benefits as other people. But the fact that I'm pinging them as a hiring manager and I'm saying apply, they will get an interview pretty easier than people who are applying to the roles, especially in this market. You know a role is popping up in 2 hours. There's 100 of applicants.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, if you have that relationships that people know you, top of their mind, that's the key to get a role is that people who advocate for you and put your name on the table without you wanting that. And that's a huge key to success in the in your career is that building those relationship that can result in this. So whenever I open a role, I have people on top of my mind that I know they're looking for a role and a great fit for this role. And, and I really do that because I know it benefit their role and benefit them. So I don't really refer people who are I don't think they're a good fit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, you know, they've been people that their life changed because of that. I mean, they get into really big tech companies. I had a mentee who was a waiter, and, afterwards, he got hired at Meta, and that's changed his life. So many of these stories, people who are just entering tech and, you know, it's really hard to find your first job and build relationships like this with people across the industry who can refer them and advocate for it. Them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So it's a it's a both mix up pool because fairness is super important when I hire. I wanna make sure I give, like, opportunity to all type of people, be as, you know, inclusive as possible to, like, all people from different backgrounds. Also, look at my team and say, like, okay. Is my team diverse enough? You know, what I'm needing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, do I have enough women at my team? I don't want, like, to having 1 woman in the room or 1 man in room to feel, like, isolated. I want everyone to feel belonging. So looking at the gaps on my team and see, like, what are those gaps that I'm looking for to fill in and really building that diverse pool of people, who are coming in to interview.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. And on the taking it from from the hiring side, I'm I'm curious putting you as the candidate. I know you were presented with options, you know, to maybe go to YouTube or Google and and LinkedIn, and, obviously, you you ultimately chose LinkedIn. When looking for a place to go, like, what was that deciding factor that made you choose LinkedIn and and framing that as advice for people who are listening? You know, if they're presented with so many options or so many different paths, like, how do you choose?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm. So, the framework I walk my mentees through is we do have a value table. Before you actually start job searching, you put together maximum five values you're looking into the next role. What are the things you really want in your next role? Example, for me, like, people mattered.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I wanna work in a culture that people come first. Growth mattered. I wanted to work in in a company that supports my growth. You know, technology mattered. I wanted to be a cutting edge technology.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Product mattered for me. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on before, and there are a couple of other things that I have in my value table. And whenever I am interviewing a company, and I always say that interview is a two way assessment. There are things you're assessing too. These values are the things you have to assess.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Ask the recruiter. Ask the hiring manager in your first interview. What is the growth framework on your team? Who was the last person who got promoted on your team? How does promotion happens?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>How do you support an engineer who falls behind? How do you onboard people onto new team? You know, all of these questions you can ask to assess how good is that company and that team role for you in terms of your value. Ask about the product if it matters. Like, how old is the product?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Is it a new thing? Why are we is this a bet? You know? Is it something that we're just gonna do right now and just, disappear, like, a year from now, or is this something the company wanna invest in long term? If these things matter for you, be prepared to ask these questions because a lot of people go into roles blindly just because it's at a good company, and then they're not happy there afterwards because they're not assessing in their interview, their role in the company.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then when you have these values and you're interviewing, I give a score from 1 to 10. 10 means they're great at it. 1, they're very poor. And, then when you're reaching to the offer stage, like top 3, top 2, interview that you're doing, you can see the differences. So, for example, for me, between YouTube and LinkedIn, it was a product.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on, and for me, YouTube was a streaming again. And I'm not a person to go in-depth. As you know, my personality, I love the breadth. I love to get things which is new. I never work on a social media platform like LinkedIn.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that was a a factor like, one of the biggest factor on that table that I picked LinkedIn over YouTube. So if you have that values, it's easy to to know, like, which one I I wanna go to and which value I wanna compromise, which one is compromiseable for me, which one is nice. For me, work life balance is not compromiseable. It's a value. I do a lot of things outside work, and work is not my only thing in life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, I wanted a company that, you know, I don't have to work 247 because I really don't admire that type of environment. So I think it's toxic. So what are those values and which one you cannot compromise and assessing those over your interview then when you're at a offer stage? You you don't have a hard time to know which one do you have to pick.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I I think I saw that you last end of towards the end of last year ran a marathon, and so those types of hobbies, I think, are pretty important. You know? Pedro and I play music music, and, I think Pedro is a coffee aficionado, so he loves making coffee.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I think it's important to have those things outside of work to to make sure you stay balanced. It sounds like you have several ways that you evolve yourself. You know, you you said you mentioned reading books and just being curious and learning new technologies. You probably also have your own mentor who you who you get advice from or several mentors. So is it is it hard, or do you just find it come naturally to still make sure that you're growing as a as a person?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Do those does that time come easy, or do you have to make sure that you, you know, spend a couple hours a week making sure that you're growing as a leader as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: That's a great question. I feel that's come naturally for me. It's not like I mostly build habits versus, like, I have to read, like, 3 hours per week. It's not like that. It comes as a habit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You all know the book, Atomic Habits. Right? It's like stacking things and building habits and systems. For me, mostly, it's systems in my life. And you can't have all of it at the same time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, you can't go to the gym and read books and be great at your work and get a mentor and run projects. It's not possible. You need to have balance long term, but in short term, you may not have a balance. So let's say if you if you wanna get better at something and you have, like, 3 books to finish, you may have to cut off from your gym time or running time or whatever you're doing at on the side for, like, a week. And then a week after, you know that what is cutting off was my running, and now I'm done with this book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So this is the things I'm gonna prioritize. I'm pulling it back up this week. I'm gonna focus on it more. So in long run, there is a balance between all of these things you're doing. But in short run, you prioritize between these things because you can't have all of these things together.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you build systems for yourself. Systems of learning. What's your system of learning? Is that books right now is so integrated into my life. It's something that, you know, I usually read in the morning when I wake up or if it's a book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Even learning how to read a book pretty fast is super important and summarize it so you can refer to it later on. But building that systems that actually can help you. For me, Fridays is my self reflection days. It's a day I have a session in the morning with my mentor. And after that session, I self reflect on, like, how what did I do this week?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What are the areas I did really well? What are the top things top five things I did at my work? Then that top five things goes to 1 on 1 next week with my manager. And this is kind of what we call it managing up. Like, how do you how do you manage up, and how do you tell your manager and your escape what are you doing, and it's getting harder as you're going higher and higher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that's that's a way of me managing up by taking that 5 outlines and putting in my 1 on 1 doc, and then self reflecting of what are the things I have to do next week, looking at my team structure, how everyone is doing, did I capture what they did greatly this week? I do that for my team too, like, every individual on the team. I have a running doc that I say these are the things they did really well this week. So when it comes to their performance review, I am very detailed for advocating for them, for every engineer, and I'm taking all that recognition in. What are the feedbacks I have to give them?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I'm very proactive on giving my direct reports feedback. I will let it sit. If someone is not doing something very well or there is there is a gap that they can do better, it would be right away. Every week, I'm thinking about their performance and how they did. So it won't be a surprise.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? There are some managers that suddenly come after, like, a year, and they say, you didn't do all of these things. And, that's hinder trust. The trust is broken at that stage. So the more honest and the more periodic and the smaller these pieces of feedbacks are and very targeted, the better those those people can grow.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So Friday, my system of self reflection into my life, plan of next week, How's my month look like? Am I having enough fun? How's my gym is going? How's my workouts? Relationship wise, am I spending time with people I love?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, sometimes I'm so much slanted at work. I forget about my friends. I'm like, next week, I'm gonna set time with my friends. Next week, I'm gonna spend more time talking to my mom. There are, like, 4 categories in my life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's career, which is one that you all have. It's love and relationships, like you being very socially, satisfied with, like, going out with people, your best friends, your family, your close relatives, spending time with them. For me, financial life matters. I'm doing on that. Am I, like, on track with my goals?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then, health, like, in terms of am I drinking enough water? Am I a happy person? How's my mental health? Do I need, like, some of the weeks that I'm very exhausted? I usually go to a lighter sort of workout.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I'm like, okay. This week, I'm gonna go do yoga instead of running because I want less intensity in my life. So how are you assessing that and then having that, like, long term balance? There is this book also called design your life where it talks about these categories, which is something I took from this book, And then, having that categories help me to balance. So I measure every category every week, and I see how I'm doing and which category requires attention.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I prioritize a week after.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: I like that. I have to check out that book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I'm I am writing that down because, there's definitely weeks or several weeks in a row where I might neglect 1 or 2 of those categories for sure. So that's that's a good book to write down.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Awesome. So, yeah, I think, we're coming close to time here for you know, thank you, Naz, for your for your time. I think maybe we could wrap it up with, you know, what's some advice that you would give to anyone who's listening, maybe something top of mind that's, you know, come across your mind over the last week or 2, that you'd like to just kinda pass along? And then where can everyone find you and and follow your journey?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. Oh, that's a hard question. I mean, something that has been top of my mind. I was reading yesterday a quote about someone who lays off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I think it was a company called Clarify, and she wrote couple of points I shared on my LinkedIn as opposed to where things I've learned from layoffs. And one of it is, like, really thinking about how do you not bound to one job and then have some back ups, make sure that that happens. The other was, like, really thinking about yourself and getting yourself back up. And, one point that was funny, and a lot of people didn't agree, is that people are there for you when you get laid off. But the reality is they're not.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Everyone having their own job, and you can expect that you're getting laid off and everyone is there for you. And now your friends are taking you to their companies. I mean, they do their best, but it's not the case. So be prepared. I mean, be prepared.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Have your resume ready all the time. I mean, don't just get on your resume when you need a job. Your resume is a reflection of you, and it needs to be ready and updated. Your LinkedIn needs to be ready and updated with latest things you do. And then always and always have 1 or 2 interview per year.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What are you doing with the company? Even if you're at a place that you're comfortable, always, always interview. You are you'll be at the ready state all the time. Also, you learn about the market and what's going on, in other companies when you interview with them, and it's a it's a way of also networking. So when you interview with hiring managers and they get to know you, later on when they have a role and if you perform there in that interview, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So be ready, before something happens is actually the key in this market. And knowing that your work is not bound to a company. You're taking your work to different companies' missions and vision and enabling part of their journey as a really amazing engineer. And, none of us have to be in a place forever. At least in tech, it's not the case.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Awesome. Yeah. I I think I think you also once mentioned sorry to sorry to jump in there. I think you also once mentioned around the interviewing process. You also just received feedback feedback from those people about how you present on a camera or your answers, or you get some valuable feedback from those interviews as well.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. And be very transparent when you do those interviews. Like, I'm not actively looking, but this looks like a good opportunity. I wanna I wanna assess and learn more about this company. Why not doing an interview?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And putting yourself in those situations more often makes you more comfortable. You'll be more confident. So if people wanna find me, I'm on LinkedIn, nazdaalum. Also, you can find all my handles on my website, nazda dev, and feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about anything I mentioned. Hopefully, we can have those books listed, John, somewhere, so people can find it on-site reference.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say I'm gonna keep in contact with you just to see what books you're reading. Awesome, Naz. Well, yeah, I I really I personally found a lot of value from this conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's a lot of things that, you mentioned that I just tend to forget over time, and so I definitely found some great value out of this conversation. Everyone, go follow her on LinkedIn. Pedro's battery is exhausted.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: My battery is exhausted, so my camera died, but I am here. Thank you, Nez. Thanks so much for your time. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me. It was great.\u003C/p>","Oh, hey. It's a visit from the cat. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher. Yeah. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks. Today, we have Naz. Naz, first off, congratulations on becoming a naturalized US citizen today. That's very exciting, very exciting. Sometimes I take that for granted. So it's very exciting when people I know have that happen. But, yeah, we'll we'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you let the people know just a brief background into who you are, maybe just a brief introduction into where you are, and then we'll get into the conversation. Absolutely. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon wherever you are in the world. My name is Naz. I am currently an engineering leader at LinkedIn, leading media, and, previously worked as as a engineering manager and software engineer at Netflix. My background to tech was very traditional, so studied bachelor and master's, in computer engineering and afterwards, systems engineering. So, yeah, it's been, 10 plus years that I am in San Francisco Bay Area, and I got my first job here right after school. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for that quick intro. As this is kind of a a a podcast focus on leadership, I figured we'd start on that leadership trend. Right now, obviously, in in tech and even starting outside of tech, there's a lot of organizational changes happening and tech layoffs and everything that's, you know, kind of on the front the front of everyone's mind. So I guess let's let's kinda start off on, an interesting take. You know, what what are some of the challenges that you see in today's market, in today's, environment being a leadership at a company like LinkedIn in in in in a tech, you know, a tech world where there's a lot of instability and uncertainty? Yeah. That's that's a great question. Unstability and uncertainty. Being comfortable with both of those and making those a norm, I guess that's the biggest change that we are seeing. And to frame it better, maybe it's just being more comfortable with a lot of change as it's coming your way and be more flexible to perform, knowing all of these uncertainties around you. So, as a leader, it's it's very hard sometimes to motivate the team and uplevel engineers when you are in this situation, an industry that everyone are hesitant to put their 100% in. So how do you do that? How do you motivate people? Well, you know, things around you are so chaotic. People are not sure if they're gonna get laid off or not. There is not more of certainty to the mission of the company. I guess, like, couple of things we are doing as a company is being very transparent with engineers if we have layoffs or not. So we are very clear that we don't have layoffs currently. If we know there's more layoffs, we'll let everyone know. So people will rest assure that there's no surprises. And I think it's been happening mostly in a lot of big takes as a surprise, which just has to change for people. It needs to be very more transparent. Yeah. That's that's a good point. And I think that, like, you know, especially at start ups and smaller companies, these things can turn on a dime on people, especially when, you know, maybe the company isn't doing so well and people get shocked. And in those environments, I've seen a lot of managers and and colleagues get together and at least share information so that they can prepare for those next steps. Is that something that you've seen happen before? And, how would you recommend the first step if you do get laid off? What that first step is in finding that new position is is, like, would you recommend applying to a bunch of, you know, jobs that you're interested in or really reaching out to that network? I will recommend take a 2 day off for yourself and do a self reflection. I've been through a layoff. So my last job at Netflix, I was laid off. And, I was on both sides of the coin, and seen both sides. So it's it's hard to get laid off. It's never easy, especially if you're performing and you're a great engineer and you're really asking yourself questions why. You know, I have dedicated to this amount of time to this company mission. I have put my all 100% in to develop features. I cared for our users, and now you're telling me to go. And this is not a great feeling for anybody. So I would say the first thing you do is just taking time off and self reflect and try to understand that this is not you, and try to think about your strengths. So what are the things that I'm great at? Because a lot of times when things happen, I see people start to blame themselves and really focusing on shortcomings. These are the things I don't have. Maybe that's why I got laid off because maybe I wasn't great at this. Oh, how can I find a job now? I'm not great at that. But instead of that, try to be focusing on your strength and see the things that you are getting hired for at the current role and then what are the values that you can take into the next role and next company. And, you know, I coach a lot of engineers nowadays, and I always even say to my team, my direct reports that you're not bound to any company. Your career is you. So when you go to a company, don't bound yourself to a company specifically. Think longer term about your career and know that layoff can happen anytime. So you enter a company. You do your best. You're bringing value with your talent. If that's an exit, then that's a goodbye in in in different form, and you're taking those values and strengths to another company and bring more value for more people around the world. And that's not the end of your career journey. That's true. Yeah. And Yeah. Go ahead, John. Yeah. I've that brings up a good point, and I'll I'll branch us into more of some questions around your leadership style because I I was watching a podcast that you were on previously this morning, and you mentioned something really interesting. You said you don't wanna be a leader on a team of followers. You wanna be a leader on a team of leaders. And so what what's some of the advice in the in the typical regular day to day that you provide to your team? You know? Because it sounds like you want to train your team to be self sufficient, hire smart people who can solve problems, and you wanna lead people who are leaders, which in the end makes you a more valuable employee anyway. So what are some of those other values that you have as a leader? Number 1, leading a team of leaders, but what are some other things that you train your team, some values that you train your team to have so that they're just a more valuable employee in general? Mhmm. I wouldn't call it a valuable employee. I would call them call them great engineers, who can go to any any company or even build their own products. Yeah. That would that was a concept I, read a book called turn the ship around. It's just an amazing leadership book, and, it talks about, how do you empower your team to make decisions on on their own. And that's so true. And it's a very easy statement, but it's not easy in practice. There's a lot of things required for that to be able to do that for your team. Autonomy. Like, how do you, as a leader, get all the information to the team that they need? How do you onboard them onto the mission vision? How do you take them to the front lines, how do you get them areas of ownership. And at the same time, as you are in the back of the things, they're also accountable for their work because you don't wanna leave everyone and go. Not everyone feel accountable. People sometimes just leave things, and they don't follow-up. So how do they be very proactive, and feel ownership of their area? So I think, like, the most important thing is if the person thinks and feels that they are creating the impact and the impact is visible, they feel more ownership to putting in the work. So for me, also, how do I recognize this engineer? How do I shed light on their work in different forums? Let's say, like, if if I like, it's a upper leadership type of forum. How do I present their work? How do I have them come and demo and show their work? So they feel they own it, and they feel the impact and importance of their work. And for me, not all the projects have the huge, huge impact. So how do you actually empower engineers to feel that sense of ownership even on projects which is like migration? And, I think for us is whenever we wanna do something, we wanna think about the why of doing it, and it's one of LinkedIn's engineering principles. We need to have a very strong why. If you have an initiative, you have an idea why are you wanna do this. And if that why is very strong, that correlates to impact. It means there is an impact. And if there is an impact and if I'm as a leader being able to give all the credit to the person who's doing the work, showcase all the light on that person, you know, and then really reward them based on their impact that they're having. They will feel the sense of ownership, and they actually execute pretty well. So that's what it says in that book is that also in addition to this, give them all the knowledge they need to perform and, have them make mistakes. I think that's one of the scariest things as a leader to leave the team to make mistakes, and it needs to be controlled mistakes. So you you need to know when you can leave like an engineer. You know what's the right solution is, but you're not saying that. You you have them take their path. You have them make mistakes, and you have them learn from those. And a lot of time when people become managers newly, they try to control that. Right? They try to make sure everything is done right on the team, and there's no area of mistake. But mistakes are very crucial for people development. So as a leader, we need to be able to have those controlled risk so people can make mistakes on areas that's it's not gonna fall apart. Yeah. I love where you talked about sense of ownership, and I think we've talked about that a few times on this podcast. Obviously, everyone feeling like they're making an impact, feeling like they're driving themselves and the organization forward. But on the flip side of that, you know, especially in today's market, like, we were talking about with the layoffs and the reorganizations that can sometimes happen at that level that it almost doesn't matter the contribution that you made. Like, how do you coach someone through that? Does that bring down morale if they see maybe half their, you know, half their colleagues have been laid off and now they're still at the company? But they're you know, they recognize that sense of ownership, and they're like, well, they didn't do anything wrong either. How do you keep morale high? How do you coach people through that? I think one of the important things is to acknowledge all the emotions. Right? Is that it is hard to be in that situation. We had a situation like that last year where I think a bunch of our engineers were laid off late last year. And it is it is hard. It's scary. And, you know, as a leader, you need to acknowledge that. When you go in a room and say, well, everything is butterfly and sunflowers, and we're good, so let's get to work, people doesn't feel like that. Instead, get to a room and say, yes. I feel very bad today. I, myself, am scared. I, myself, am not happy. I need actually some time to get my, you know, self up and running to be able to execute at my current job as a leader. So take that time too. It is heartbreaking to see people go around us, and I think as you're acknowledging that emotions, people feel more safe. People feel that they're in an environment that their leaders feel the same as they are, and no one is trying to, you know, hide things from them or display things in a different way as they are. And that transparency, even on the feelings level, will help people navigate these situations. And be very frank with people. I mean, this is an environment we are in at tech where layoffs are happening. It's been happening forever. This is not something new. When you sign a contract with a company, you sign that you can exit anytime, and they can let you go anytime. And this is a norm, and I don't think people should really bound themselves to these things and things like this is the end, and all my contributions are gone. This is not the case. Even for people, the they got laid off. There have been many instances that we help them find their new role, so we are there for them. This wasn't something they have done. They are great engineers. There were many instances that I referred them to different places. We tried our best to find them new places, and, you know, business is business, and I think that's for people to understand. If CEOs of companies getting laid off, you know, it's it's okay for employees to get laid off. So it's it's a norm. I guess, like, in that situation, just to summarize, just be very honest with people. Talk about their feelings. Acknowledge. So there is the 7 stages of grief that we all know. You have to walk your team through that 7 stages. And don't do that in one day. Day 1, every stage in one day, and then in the 7th day, people are back to their norm. If you're actually acknowledging the emotion, give them time to come back. Take that anger. Create spaces for people to talk to you, and have them feel safe by you opening up yourself as a leader and talking about how you feel about this. People continue to open up and just put out everything that they're feeling. There would be anger. There would be resentment. There would be lack of trust for a while. The morale will get impact, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's the reality of the layoffs. And the companies who are doing that, they know that it will have an impact, Yeah. Yeah. Be prepared for productivity. Yeah. Productivity to drop, morale to drop, but but, you know, maybe after a few weeks, it returns back to the norm if you can manage through it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Be prepared because you can expect your team to perform the same way they've been. It's it's grief. You you know, human beings, we can perform the same way. It's it's exactly the last process. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's take a step back in your journey because I'm always curious how people find their way to leadership, roles that they've had. And I believe part of your story is going through some of these transitions at previous companies that you're in. So I guess let's kind of take take it back to the beginning of your engineering journey. You know, what were you doing? What were some of those roles that you had? And what does that transition from an individual contributor to leadership look like for you? Sure. I wrote a blog post on this as my story called transition to leadership like a butterfly, if if you anyone wanna read, in detail. But I guess I started my engineering journey, like, years back as a back end engineer. So I was doing Java. That time was Spring, Khybernet, all these technologies, and I had a lot of pivots. So I'm very curious person, and I wanted to pick up different things. So I pivoted from back end to front end. And then and decide, I did things like machine learning. I worked on self driving cars, did a little bit of AI here and there, studied system engineering while I was working, worked a little bit on NASA. So so many different branches I had, where I was an engineer. So I wasn't only doing my work. I was very active even outside of my work. And then during that time, as I was exploring different things, was I got this role to becoming a software architect, which was one of the most interesting and fruitful roles I had as an engineer where I could work on, like, a system end to end and work with so many amazing people who had many, many years of experience. So as an engineer, I definitely had experience with all over, all the technologies that we have, across the stack. And I think that made me very, versatile and being able to shift very quickly from, like, back end to front end or using different technologies and, bringing systems upgraded systems and having system understanding. How do you build complex systems that are highly aligned and loosely coupled? So how do you, like, handle risk? How do you test very well? So, that's part of my engineering journey. But things change. You know? As I started, I was very more technical, and then all of the softer skills getting added as requirement for my role. Right? How do I run a meeting effectively? And as I grew more and more, I had to deal with more and more people, and that people side got way more interesting for me. So, I talk about my library when I, when I write that blog post where, initially, most of my books were technical. When I started my engineering journey, you can find my library from a programming books. And then as this continues, there's, like, addition of softer skills book getting added to my library. And I would see myself reading those books more more than my technical books, and sometimes I ask myself, like, am I doing the right thing? Am I, like, going away from my path and doing something new? But, I could say, like, my mindset as my library kind of get transitioned to the people side of it. And over time, I find that more interesting because if I can enable and empower people, and I've been told many times that this is your strength, If I can do that, I would have way more impact than just running myself and executing myself. Mhmm. Do you find that curiosity that you you found for evolving, you know, soft skills and and newer technologies? That that's definitely a theme that we've heard from almost everyone that we've talked to on this podcast, the curiosity to try new things and then also not be afraid to fail when you're trying new things, but just that curiosity in general. Do you find that to be a crucial a crucial trait to have for a leader? And if so, is that something that you you try and cultivate with your, oh, hey. Visit from the cat. I was hoping he'd show up. Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher. I'm gonna show up. Show up. Yeah. Is that a trait that you is is that a trait that you cultivate in people that you're leading who who also show that they wanna be leaders? If they don't have that trait or if they do have it, is that something that you cultivate with them? I mean, people have different personalities. That's the thing I've learned, and not everyone wanna branch this many branches, to be honest. Some people like to go in-depth in one thing, and they stay in one thing, and they they, like, create expertise. Some people like me, they they just like to explore, and they gets maybe bored. I I would like I feel whenever I feel comfortable, and I learn something and I know I'm good at it right now and I'm comfortable with it, now I start to, like, seek something else. I challenge myself constantly. Not everyone is like that, and it's okay, not to be like that. I think people have very, very different personalities. And, if they are the opposite of the spectrum, doesn't mean that they're not successful, and they can't be greatly less. But for me, specifically, my personality was in that spectrum of, like, I I don't stay in one zone when I'm comfortable, and I'm constantly want to learn something new. Every year, I pick a new technology to learn out of nowhere. Like, this year, I was looking at quantum computing. Is it related to my job? No. It's it's like out of nowhere I do learn it. It's interesting to me. Is there any re that's a that's a hefty, hefty topic to start learning. Is there a reason you chose that, or you just you saw it, you had almost no idea what it was, and you just wanted to start exploring it? Exactly. I saw it. I had no idea. I read things about it, how it solves problem, like, developing new drugs and proteins and working on human DNA, and I'm like, oh my god. This is this is super interesting. How does this work? And I started, like, listening to YouTube videos and then reading books about, like, quantum mechanics. So, yeah, I think it's just a curiosity and me wanting to pushing myself constantly out of my comfort zone and challenge myself. I feel that I'm if I feel like I'm in one place, I feel I'm stagnating. So it's it's all about personalities. Like, we have different personality traits. I think my my my personality, I'm more of, like, an alpha personality where I have, like, very extreme growth mindset. But people have, like, different spectrums. Some people are very focused on one thing, and they're really great at it, and they don't go out of it. So I think that's totally fine to be in a different spectrum. As long as you're growing, it should be totally fine. Yeah. I think it's also a future it sounds like it's also a future focus too. Right? Curious about what comes next. I mean, people studying people have been studying, obviously, AI and large language models for, you know, years already. We just, as the public, come to see it now. So maybe, like you're saying, quantum computing is that next frontier in 10, 20 years that sort of becomes more more mainstream. Yeah. So, yeah, that that future focus is is interesting. I heard somewhere that, like, I guess at some point, quantum computers can essentially break all encrypted passwords that we have today. So it it could be an interesting problem to solve for tomorrow. Right? Like, how do we secure devices if not with, you know, with passwords and things? Yeah. I think that one thing that it was around 2015 when I went to ACM of ours. I don't know if anyone familiar. Association of Computer Machinery is, like, one of the most prestigious computer science, association, and this award is, like, a Nobel Prize for scientists. So that year, I think, was Bernice Lee who invented the Internet who got the award, and it was at the award ceremony. And there was a committee who is protecting our data. And it was very interesting to me because all of our data now is binary. And with quantum computing, be the future, and it's not transferrable, how are how are our data gonna be read with quantum machines? Who's gonna protect it? Who's gonna keep a repository of all of our data? And it was surprising to me that there is a whole committee who's responsible for taking care of our data, you know, as a society. And, they're thinking about all of these things. It's like, how do we transfer this data to quantum later on? So people can look at their images, or look at their binary data. But, yeah, if when you go to these places and you see people forward thinking these many levels, you'll be amazed to hear, like, there are people actually thinking about this thing. Yeah. And I also assume one thing I've heard you talk about in other podcasts as well is networking, especially as you just wanna become a better a better engineer, better employee, networking with people. And I'm sure those types of events also introduce you to people with really interesting things that they say and and even new topics that you can then, 5 years later, start to investigate yourself. And so what's the for for this podcast and for the people listening here, what is the value of networking that you, you know, find yourself and that you train for or or you you pass on to your mentees as well? Yeah. That's a good question. Well, a couple of things. First of all, don't network because you want something from people. Network before you want something from people. So beat those relationships before it comes to, like, looking for a job or, you know, changing your role. And, I always call it vertical and horizontal net networking. So when you are at a role in in your company, you need both of them. So you start the first three months of your role to 1st 6 months doing vertical networking. And by vertical, I mean your team, your manager, your skip manager, and everyone in the chain, and your close partners, so anyone you work with day to day base. So build relationship with those people. But after that 6 months, you start to do horizon networking, which means going outside your team to other teams that you don't know about. A lot of companies have so many tools. Like, I remember when I was at Netflix, there was this coffee chat where you could register, and you get randomly, matched with someone across the company and you could get a coffee with. At LinkedIn, we have, like, similar tools that you can go in and, you know, chat with people across the company. If your company doesn't have 1, be the leader and build 1, so people can chat with each other. Or just simply, you know, ping people for, like, a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about them, introduce yourself, and, just connect with them. And then later on, you will be surprised how those people would show up in your journey, in your career. Not everyone have to give you a job or refer you. They will inspire you in so many ways as you're networking with them. You may have a question or you may get an idea and you can run by them or they would just be your advocates. They know you somehow. And when there is an opportunity, they remember you, and they put your name up on the table. So that's that's a thing. Always remember. Don't forget that horizontal networking. People usually go to companies, and they just rely on the vertical networking. They don't know really anyone across the company, and it's similar outside. As I mentioned, your career is not bound to a company, so think the same thing. Vertical networking in your area, horizontal networking outside your area, network with recruiters in different companies, network with people outside your field. LinkedIn right now make it super easy for everybody. I think 10 years was their LinkedIn, but it wasn't as active as now where you could find people this easily. Now we are getting to the area of conferences being back again after COVID. So attended conferences, meetups, and chat with people, learn about them, and they will learn about you too. So that's a that's a good thing to be at. And there is so many things nowadays. I mean, you see all of these mentorship platforms that's showing up, which wasn't there 10 years ago when we started. That's a great way of networking, getting a mentor. It's a next level because that person is investing in you. And if someone is invest in you, they're way more willingly advocating for you later on than someone who just you meet in a conference. So go on on these platforms. You know, there's a ton of them across the industry. Maybe get to the session with different mentors, people you aspire to be like them or people you they're ahead of you and you wanna get there. Learn how do they get there and ask for their advice. And then later on, when you build these relationships and talk to so many different people, they will invest in you and advocate for you whenever you are in your career. Yeah. You mentioned LinkedIn was a good resource for that. Obviously, you know, that's bringing the entire network together and having making it easier for people to just reach out. In the past, like, I found it maybe awkward or or scary almost to reach out to people for advice. Like, what would you when you're reaching out to someone that doesn't know you at all completely cold and wanting to network with them, what are some tips that you would recommend on that initial sort of cold message? I won't really do that. Right? I won't reach out to someone I don't know, and I don't advise that. That's why I'm saying, like, network before you actually need an advice, like, have a really broad people that you know. I won't send a cold message to someone and say, hey. I need an advice, and I know need 30 minutes of your time. People are super busy, especially people who are in better stages that can advise you. Right? Go get a mentor. Right now, there is so many ways of doing that. There's all of these platforms. There's Play Doh, Mentor Cruise, MentorMe. I mean, there's so many of them out there that you can find these people on those platforms actually offering you time. So, go find those platforms and find those people, and that's respecting their time and also going there professionally and getting the advice you need. And that will build trust between you and that person because your mentor is now trusting you. And then you can send the cold message after you have couple of sessions with this person and say, you know what? I need an advice on this. What do I do? And they will always there for you. Like, I'll tell all my mentees, like, I'm your all time advocate. Anytime I mentor, I'll be there for them, like, through their career. So, yes, it can happen. People, like, send them cold messages and say, hey. Can you make a referral? And I'm like, I I don't even know you. And that makes me question your judgment because how would you want me someone who actually doesn't know you at all to refer you to a role versus someone who's coming in and say, look. I'm looking for a job, and these are the things I wanna get better at. I have a good understanding of myself. Can you advise me how can I find a job? And then at that stage, when I have couple of chats with that person, may mock interview them, I know how their level and how they are. And I actually myself refer them to places that I think it's a great fit for them. So it happens very naturally when you build the relationship the right way. I am not a believer in those cold messages. Sometimes they work, but, I mostly believe in building relationships that are strong with people that have really good foundation and trust. Yeah. That's that's really good advice. I think it's crucial these days to kind of build those are you when you open a position, are Are you when you open a position, are you first thinking of people who have built that type of a relationship with you, whether they're, you know, someone who would fit the position? And then, are you reaching out to your network of people saying, do you know somebody who might fill this position or might fit this position? I guess, which one or both? You know, do you look for both of those types of sources for people when you're scaling your teams? Yeah. So I try to be fair because I don't wanna only look at the people I know and advocate for them, only because I wanna give opportunity to people who I don't know and they can apply to the role. So we I usually build a pool of people where 10 to 20% of them are people I know and I know it's a good fit for this role, and the rest are opportunity for other people to apply to the role. And I take a look at those resumes too. But because I know these people, because I invested them, when a role pops up, I have them top of my mind, and I ping them that this is a role that's popped up. If you're interested, apply. But I'm not giving them extra benefits as other people. But the fact that I'm pinging them as a hiring manager and I'm saying apply, they will get an interview pretty easier than people who are applying to the roles, especially in this market. You know a role is popping up in 2 hours. There's 100 of applicants. And, if you have that relationships that people know you, top of their mind, that's the key to get a role is that people who advocate for you and put your name on the table without you wanting that. And that's a huge key to success in the in your career is that building those relationship that can result in this. So whenever I open a role, I have people on top of my mind that I know they're looking for a role and a great fit for this role. And, and I really do that because I know it benefit their role and benefit them. So I don't really refer people who are I don't think they're a good fit. And, you know, they've been people that their life changed because of that. I mean, they get into really big tech companies. I had a mentee who was a waiter, and, afterwards, he got hired at Meta, and that's changed his life. So many of these stories, people who are just entering tech and, you know, it's really hard to find your first job and build relationships like this with people across the industry who can refer them and advocate for it. Them. So it's a it's a both mix up pool because fairness is super important when I hire. I wanna make sure I give, like, opportunity to all type of people, be as, you know, inclusive as possible to, like, all people from different backgrounds. Also, look at my team and say, like, okay. Is my team diverse enough? You know, what I'm needing. Like, do I have enough women at my team? I don't want, like, to having 1 woman in the room or 1 man in room to feel, like, isolated. I want everyone to feel belonging. So looking at the gaps on my team and see, like, what are those gaps that I'm looking for to fill in and really building that diverse pool of people, who are coming in to interview. Yeah. And on the taking it from from the hiring side, I'm I'm curious putting you as the candidate. I know you were presented with options, you know, to maybe go to YouTube or Google and and LinkedIn, and, obviously, you you ultimately chose LinkedIn. When looking for a place to go, like, what was that deciding factor that made you choose LinkedIn and and framing that as advice for people who are listening? You know, if they're presented with so many options or so many different paths, like, how do you choose? Mhmm. So, the framework I walk my mentees through is we do have a value table. Before you actually start job searching, you put together maximum five values you're looking into the next role. What are the things you really want in your next role? Example, for me, like, people mattered. I wanna work in a culture that people come first. Growth mattered. I wanted to work in in a company that supports my growth. You know, technology mattered. I wanted to be a cutting edge technology. Product mattered for me. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on before, and there are a couple of other things that I have in my value table. And whenever I am interviewing a company, and I always say that interview is a two way assessment. There are things you're assessing too. These values are the things you have to assess. Ask the recruiter. Ask the hiring manager in your first interview. What is the growth framework on your team? Who was the last person who got promoted on your team? How does promotion happens? How do you support an engineer who falls behind? How do you onboard people onto new team? You know, all of these questions you can ask to assess how good is that company and that team role for you in terms of your value. Ask about the product if it matters. Like, how old is the product? Is it a new thing? Why are we is this a bet? You know? Is it something that we're just gonna do right now and just, disappear, like, a year from now, or is this something the company wanna invest in long term? If these things matter for you, be prepared to ask these questions because a lot of people go into roles blindly just because it's at a good company, and then they're not happy there afterwards because they're not assessing in their interview, their role in the company. And then when you have these values and you're interviewing, I give a score from 1 to 10. 10 means they're great at it. 1, they're very poor. And, then when you're reaching to the offer stage, like top 3, top 2, interview that you're doing, you can see the differences. So, for example, for me, between YouTube and LinkedIn, it was a product. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on, and for me, YouTube was a streaming again. And I'm not a person to go in-depth. As you know, my personality, I love the breadth. I love to get things which is new. I never work on a social media platform like LinkedIn. So that was a a factor like, one of the biggest factor on that table that I picked LinkedIn over YouTube. So if you have that values, it's easy to to know, like, which one I I wanna go to and which value I wanna compromise, which one is compromiseable for me, which one is nice. For me, work life balance is not compromiseable. It's a value. I do a lot of things outside work, and work is not my only thing in life. So, I wanted a company that, you know, I don't have to work 247 because I really don't admire that type of environment. So I think it's toxic. So what are those values and which one you cannot compromise and assessing those over your interview then when you're at a offer stage? You you don't have a hard time to know which one do you have to pick. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I saw that you last end of towards the end of last year ran a marathon, and so those types of hobbies, I think, are pretty important. You know? Pedro and I play music music, and, I think Pedro is a coffee aficionado, so he loves making coffee. So I think it's important to have those things outside of work to to make sure you stay balanced. It sounds like you have several ways that you evolve yourself. You know, you you said you mentioned reading books and just being curious and learning new technologies. You probably also have your own mentor who you who you get advice from or several mentors. So is it is it hard, or do you just find it come naturally to still make sure that you're growing as a as a person? Do those does that time come easy, or do you have to make sure that you, you know, spend a couple hours a week making sure that you're growing as a leader as well? That's a great question. I feel that's come naturally for me. It's not like I mostly build habits versus, like, I have to read, like, 3 hours per week. It's not like that. It comes as a habit. You all know the book, Atomic Habits. Right? It's like stacking things and building habits and systems. For me, mostly, it's systems in my life. And you can't have all of it at the same time. Like, you can't go to the gym and read books and be great at your work and get a mentor and run projects. It's not possible. You need to have balance long term, but in short term, you may not have a balance. So let's say if you if you wanna get better at something and you have, like, 3 books to finish, you may have to cut off from your gym time or running time or whatever you're doing at on the side for, like, a week. And then a week after, you know that what is cutting off was my running, and now I'm done with this book. So this is the things I'm gonna prioritize. I'm pulling it back up this week. I'm gonna focus on it more. So in long run, there is a balance between all of these things you're doing. But in short run, you prioritize between these things because you can't have all of these things together. And then you build systems for yourself. Systems of learning. What's your system of learning? Is that books right now is so integrated into my life. It's something that, you know, I usually read in the morning when I wake up or if it's a book. Even learning how to read a book pretty fast is super important and summarize it so you can refer to it later on. But building that systems that actually can help you. For me, Fridays is my self reflection days. It's a day I have a session in the morning with my mentor. And after that session, I self reflect on, like, how what did I do this week? What are the areas I did really well? What are the top things top five things I did at my work? Then that top five things goes to 1 on 1 next week with my manager. And this is kind of what we call it managing up. Like, how do you how do you manage up, and how do you tell your manager and your escape what are you doing, and it's getting harder as you're going higher and higher. So that's that's a way of me managing up by taking that 5 outlines and putting in my 1 on 1 doc, and then self reflecting of what are the things I have to do next week, looking at my team structure, how everyone is doing, did I capture what they did greatly this week? I do that for my team too, like, every individual on the team. I have a running doc that I say these are the things they did really well this week. So when it comes to their performance review, I am very detailed for advocating for them, for every engineer, and I'm taking all that recognition in. What are the feedbacks I have to give them? I'm very proactive on giving my direct reports feedback. I will let it sit. If someone is not doing something very well or there is there is a gap that they can do better, it would be right away. Every week, I'm thinking about their performance and how they did. So it won't be a surprise. You know? There are some managers that suddenly come after, like, a year, and they say, you didn't do all of these things. And, that's hinder trust. The trust is broken at that stage. So the more honest and the more periodic and the smaller these pieces of feedbacks are and very targeted, the better those those people can grow. So Friday, my system of self reflection into my life, plan of next week, How's my month look like? Am I having enough fun? How's my gym is going? How's my workouts? Relationship wise, am I spending time with people I love? Like, sometimes I'm so much slanted at work. I forget about my friends. I'm like, next week, I'm gonna set time with my friends. Next week, I'm gonna spend more time talking to my mom. There are, like, 4 categories in my life. It's career, which is one that you all have. It's love and relationships, like you being very socially, satisfied with, like, going out with people, your best friends, your family, your close relatives, spending time with them. For me, financial life matters. I'm doing on that. Am I, like, on track with my goals? And then, health, like, in terms of am I drinking enough water? Am I a happy person? How's my mental health? Do I need, like, some of the weeks that I'm very exhausted? I usually go to a lighter sort of workout. And I'm like, okay. This week, I'm gonna go do yoga instead of running because I want less intensity in my life. So how are you assessing that and then having that, like, long term balance? There is this book also called design your life where it talks about these categories, which is something I took from this book, And then, having that categories help me to balance. So I measure every category every week, and I see how I'm doing and which category requires attention. I prioritize a week after. I like that. I have to check out that book. Yeah. I'm I am writing that down because, there's definitely weeks or several weeks in a row where I might neglect 1 or 2 of those categories for sure. So that's that's a good book to write down. Awesome. So, yeah, I think, we're coming close to time here for you know, thank you, Naz, for your for your time. I think maybe we could wrap it up with, you know, what's some advice that you would give to anyone who's listening, maybe something top of mind that's, you know, come across your mind over the last week or 2, that you'd like to just kinda pass along? And then where can everyone find you and and follow your journey? Yeah. Sure. Oh, that's a hard question. I mean, something that has been top of my mind. I was reading yesterday a quote about someone who lays off. I think it was a company called Clarify, and she wrote couple of points I shared on my LinkedIn as opposed to where things I've learned from layoffs. And one of it is, like, really thinking about how do you not bound to one job and then have some back ups, make sure that that happens. The other was, like, really thinking about yourself and getting yourself back up. And, one point that was funny, and a lot of people didn't agree, is that people are there for you when you get laid off. But the reality is they're not. Everyone having their own job, and you can expect that you're getting laid off and everyone is there for you. And now your friends are taking you to their companies. I mean, they do their best, but it's not the case. So be prepared. I mean, be prepared. Have your resume ready all the time. I mean, don't just get on your resume when you need a job. Your resume is a reflection of you, and it needs to be ready and updated. Your LinkedIn needs to be ready and updated with latest things you do. And then always and always have 1 or 2 interview per year. What are you doing with the company? Even if you're at a place that you're comfortable, always, always interview. You are you'll be at the ready state all the time. Also, you learn about the market and what's going on, in other companies when you interview with them, and it's a it's a way of also networking. So when you interview with hiring managers and they get to know you, later on when they have a role and if you perform there in that interview, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you. So be ready, before something happens is actually the key in this market. And knowing that your work is not bound to a company. You're taking your work to different companies' missions and vision and enabling part of their journey as a really amazing engineer. And, none of us have to be in a place forever. At least in tech, it's not the case. So Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I I think I think you also once mentioned sorry to sorry to jump in there. I think you also once mentioned around the interviewing process. You also just received feedback feedback from those people about how you present on a camera or your answers, or you get some valuable feedback from those interviews as well. Yeah. And be very transparent when you do those interviews. Like, I'm not actively looking, but this looks like a good opportunity. I wanna I wanna assess and learn more about this company. Why not doing an interview? And putting yourself in those situations more often makes you more comfortable. You'll be more confident. So if people wanna find me, I'm on LinkedIn, nazdaalum. Also, you can find all my handles on my website, nazda dev, and feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about anything I mentioned. Hopefully, we can have those books listed, John, somewhere, so people can find it on-site reference. Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say I'm gonna keep in contact with you just to see what books you're reading. Awesome, Naz. Well, yeah, I I really I personally found a lot of value from this conversation. There's a lot of things that, you mentioned that I just tend to forget over time, and so I definitely found some great value out of this conversation. Everyone, go follow her on LinkedIn. Pedro's battery is exhausted. My battery is exhausted, so my camera died, but I am here. Thank you, Nez. Thanks so much for your time. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me. 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