[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":451},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-primary":3,"footer-secondary":93,"footer-description":119,"trace-talks-naz-delam":121,"trace-talks-naz-delam-next":183,"sales-reps":199},{"items":4},[5,29,49,69],{"id":6,"title":7,"url":8,"page":8,"children":9},"522e608a-77b0-4333-820d-d4f44be2ade1","Solutions",null,[10,15,20,25],{"id":11,"title":12,"url":8,"page":13},"fcafe85a-a798-4710-9e7a-776fe413aae5","Headless CMS",{"permalink":14},"/solutions/headless-cms",{"id":16,"title":17,"url":8,"page":18},"79972923-93cf-4777-9e32-5c9b0315fc10","Backend-as-a-Service",{"permalink":19},"/solutions/backend-as-a-service",{"id":21,"title":22,"url":8,"page":23},"0fa8d0c1-7b64-4f6f-939d-d7fdb99fc407","Product Information",{"permalink":24},"/solutions/product-information-management",{"id":26,"title":27,"url":28,"page":8},"63946d54-6052-4780-8ff4-91f5a9931dcc","100+ Things to Build","https://directus.io/blog/100-tools-apps-and-platforms-you-can-build-with-directus",{"id":30,"title":31,"url":8,"page":8,"children":32},"8ab4f9b1-f3e2-44d6-919b-011d91fe072f","Resources",[33,37,41,45],{"id":34,"title":35,"url":36,"page":8},"f951fb84-8777-4b84-9e91-996fe9d25483","Documentation","https://docs.directus.io",{"id":38,"title":39,"url":40,"page":8},"366febc7-a538-4c08-a326-e6204957f1e3","Guides","https://docs.directus.io/guides/",{"id":42,"title":43,"url":44,"page":8},"aeb9128e-1c5f-417f-863c-2449416433cd","Community","https://directus.chat",{"id":46,"title":47,"url":48,"page":8},"da1c2ed8-0a77-49b0-a903-49c56cb07de5","Release Notes","https://github.com/directus/directus/releases",{"id":50,"title":51,"url":8,"page":8,"children":52},"d61fae8c-7502-494a-822f-19ecff3d0256","Support",[53,57,61,65],{"id":54,"title":55,"url":56,"page":8},"8c43c781-7ebd-475f-a931-747e293c0a88","Issue Tracker","https://github.com/directus/directus/issues",{"id":58,"title":59,"url":60,"page":8},"d77bb78e-cf7b-4e01-932a-514414ba49d3","Feature Requests","https://github.com/directus/directus/discussions?discussions_q=is:open+sort:top",{"id":62,"title":63,"url":64,"page":8},"4346be2b-2c53-476e-b53b-becacec626a6","Community Chat","https://discord.com/channels/725371605378924594/741317677397704757",{"id":66,"title":67,"url":68,"page":8},"26c115d2-49f7-4edc-935e-d37d427fb89d","Cloud Dashboard","https://directus.cloud",{"id":70,"title":71,"url":8,"page":8,"children":72},"49141403-4f20-44ac-8453-25ace1265812","Organization",[73,78,84,88],{"id":74,"title":75,"url":76,"page":77},"1f36ea92-8a5e-47c8-914c-9822a8b9538a","About","/about",{"permalink":76},{"id":79,"title":80,"url":81,"page":82},"b84bf525-5471-4b14-a93c-225f6c386005","Careers","#",{"permalink":83},"/careers",{"id":85,"title":86,"url":87,"page":8},"86aabc3a-433d-434b-9efa-ad1d34be0a34","Brand Assets","https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lBOTba4RaA5ikqOn8Ewo4RYzD0XcymG9?usp=sharing",{"id":89,"title":90,"url":8,"page":91},"8d2fa1e3-198e-4405-81e1-2ceb858bc237","Contact",{"permalink":92},"/contact",{"items":94},[95,101,107,113],{"id":96,"title":97,"url":8,"page":98,"children":100},"8a1b7bfa-429d-4ffc-a650-2a5fdcf356da","Cloud Policies",{"permalink":99},"/cloud-policies",[],{"id":102,"title":103,"url":81,"page":104,"children":106},"bea848ef-828f-4306-8017-6b00ec5d4a0c","License",{"permalink":105},"/bsl",[],{"id":108,"title":109,"url":81,"page":110,"children":112},"4e914f47-4bee-42b7-b445-3119ee4196ef","Terms",{"permalink":111},"/terms",[],{"id":114,"title":115,"url":81,"page":116,"children":118},"ea69eda6-d317-4981-8421-fcabb1826bfd","Privacy",{"permalink":117},"/privacy",[],{"description":120},"\u003Cp>A composable backend to build your Headless CMS, BaaS, and more. \u003C/p>",{"id":122,"slug":123,"vimeo_id":124,"description":125,"tile":126,"length":127,"resources":8,"people":8,"episode_number":128,"published":129,"title":130,"video_transcript_html":131,"video_transcript_text":132,"content":8,"status":133,"episode_people":134,"recommendations":169,"season":170,"seo":182},"5755bb0e-40d5-49c3-bc89-29fb576a4d37","naz-delam","948642030","In this episode of Trace Talks, engineering leader Naz Delam shares her journey to LinkedIn, highlighting key leadership lessons she's learned along the way – from challenges of leading teams during tech layoffs to empowering teams through autonomy and ownership.\n\nNaz also offers practical advice on handling layoffs, continuous learning, and effective networking. \n\nThis episode is a MUST-LISTEN for any aspiring leaders in the tech industry.","64ce77c4-fc3c-4b5b-b344-771d6b867731",52,1,"2024-05-30","Naz Delam, Software Engineering Manager at LinkedIn","\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Oh, hey. It's a visit from the cat. I was hoping it would show up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Today, we have Naz. Naz, first off, congratulations on becoming a naturalized US citizen today. That's very exciting, very exciting. Sometimes I take that for granted. So it's very exciting when people I know have that happen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But, yeah, we'll we'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you let the people know just a brief background into who you are, maybe just a brief introduction into where you are, and then we'll get into the conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Absolutely. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon wherever you are in the world. My name is Naz. I am currently an engineering leader at LinkedIn, leading media, and, previously worked as as a engineering manager and software engineer at Netflix.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>My background to tech was very traditional, so studied bachelor and master's, in computer engineering and afterwards, systems engineering. So, yeah, it's been, 10 plus years that I am in San Francisco Bay Area, and I got my first job here right after school.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for that quick intro. As this is kind of a a a podcast focus on leadership, I figured we'd start on that leadership trend. Right now, obviously, in in tech and even starting outside of tech, there's a lot of organizational changes happening and tech layoffs and everything that's, you know, kind of on the front the front of everyone's mind.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I guess let's let's kinda start off on, an interesting take. You know, what what are some of the challenges that you see in today's market, in today's, environment being a leadership at a company like LinkedIn in in in in a tech, you know, a tech world where there's a lot of instability and uncertainty?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's that's a great question. Unstability and uncertainty. Being comfortable with both of those and making those a norm, I guess that's the biggest change that we are seeing. And to frame it better, maybe it's just being more comfortable with a lot of change as it's coming your way and be more flexible to perform, knowing all of these uncertainties around you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, as a leader, it's it's very hard sometimes to motivate the team and uplevel engineers when you are in this situation, an industry that everyone are hesitant to put their 100% in. So how do you do that? How do you motivate people? Well, you know, things around you are so chaotic. People are not sure if they're gonna get laid off or not.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There is not more of certainty to the mission of the company. I guess, like, couple of things we are doing as a company is being very transparent with engineers if we have layoffs or not. So we are very clear that we don't have layoffs currently. If we know there's more layoffs, we'll let everyone know. So people will rest assure that there's no surprises.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think it's been happening mostly in a lot of big takes as a surprise, which just has to change for people. It needs to be very more transparent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. That's that's a good point. And I think that, like, you know, especially at start ups and smaller companies, these things can turn on a dime on people, especially when, you know, maybe the company isn't doing so well and people get shocked. And in those environments, I've seen a lot of managers and and colleagues get together and at least share information so that they can prepare for those next steps. Is that something that you've seen happen before?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, how would you recommend the first step if you do get laid off? What that first step is in finding that new position is is, like, would you recommend applying to a bunch of, you know, jobs that you're interested in or really reaching out to that network?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I will recommend take a 2 day off for yourself and do a self reflection. I've been through a layoff. So my last job at Netflix, I was laid off. And, I was on both sides of the coin, and seen both sides. So it's it's hard to get laid off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's never easy, especially if you're performing and you're a great engineer and you're really asking yourself questions why. You know, I have dedicated to this amount of time to this company mission. I have put my all 100% in to develop features. I cared for our users, and now you're telling me to go. And this is not a great feeling for anybody.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I would say the first thing you do is just taking time off and self reflect and try to understand that this is not you, and try to think about your strengths. So what are the things that I'm great at? Because a lot of times when things happen, I see people start to blame themselves and really focusing on shortcomings. These are the things I don't have. Maybe that's why I got laid off because maybe I wasn't great at this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Oh, how can I find a job now? I'm not great at that. But instead of that, try to be focusing on your strength and see the things that you are getting hired for at the current role and then what are the values that you can take into the next role and next company. And, you know, I coach a lot of engineers nowadays, and I always even say to my team, my direct reports that you're not bound to any company. Your career is you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So when you go to a company, don't bound yourself to a company specifically. Think longer term about your career and know that layoff can happen anytime. So you enter a company. You do your best. You're bringing value with your talent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If that's an exit, then that's a goodbye in in in different form, and you're taking those values and strengths to another company and bring more value for more people around the world. And that's not the end of your career journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah. And Yeah. Go ahead, John.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I've that brings up a good point, and I'll I'll branch us into more of some questions around your leadership style because I I was watching a podcast that you were on previously this morning, and you mentioned something really interesting. You said you don't wanna be a leader on a team of followers. You wanna be a leader on a team of leaders. And so what what's some of the advice in the in the typical regular day to day that you provide to your team?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? Because it sounds like you want to train your team to be self sufficient, hire smart people who can solve problems, and you wanna lead people who are leaders, which in the end makes you a more valuable employee anyway. So what are some of those other values that you have as a leader? Number 1, leading a team of leaders, but what are some other things that you train your team, some values that you train your team to have so that they're just a more valuable employee in general?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm. I wouldn't call it a valuable employee. I would call them call them great engineers, who can go to any any company or even build their own products. Yeah. That would that was a concept I, read a book called turn the ship around.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's just an amazing leadership book, and, it talks about, how do you empower your team to make decisions on on their own. And that's so true. And it's a very easy statement, but it's not easy in practice. There's a lot of things required for that to be able to do that for your team. Autonomy.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, how do you, as a leader, get all the information to the team that they need? How do you onboard them onto the mission vision? How do you take them to the front lines, how do you get them areas of ownership. And at the same time, as you are in the back of the things, they're also accountable for their work because you don't wanna leave everyone and go. Not everyone feel accountable.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People sometimes just leave things, and they don't follow-up. So how do they be very proactive, and feel ownership of their area? So I think, like, the most important thing is if the person thinks and feels that they are creating the impact and the impact is visible, they feel more ownership to putting in the work. So for me, also, how do I recognize this engineer? How do I shed light on their work in different forums?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Let's say, like, if if I like, it's a upper leadership type of forum. How do I present their work? How do I have them come and demo and show their work? So they feel they own it, and they feel the impact and importance of their work. And for me, not all the projects have the huge, huge impact.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So how do you actually empower engineers to feel that sense of ownership even on projects which is like migration? And, I think for us is whenever we wanna do something, we wanna think about the why of doing it, and it's one of LinkedIn's engineering principles. We need to have a very strong why. If you have an initiative, you have an idea why are you wanna do this. And if that why is very strong, that correlates to impact.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It means there is an impact. And if there is an impact and if I'm as a leader being able to give all the credit to the person who's doing the work, showcase all the light on that person, you know, and then really reward them based on their impact that they're having. They will feel the sense of ownership, and they actually execute pretty well. So that's what it says in that book is that also in addition to this, give them all the knowledge they need to perform and, have them make mistakes. I think that's one of the scariest things as a leader to leave the team to make mistakes, and it needs to be controlled mistakes.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So you you need to know when you can leave like an engineer. You know what's the right solution is, but you're not saying that. You you have them take their path. You have them make mistakes, and you have them learn from those. And a lot of time when people become managers newly, they try to control that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Right? They try to make sure everything is done right on the team, and there's no area of mistake. But mistakes are very crucial for people development. So as a leader, we need to be able to have those controlled risk so people can make mistakes on areas that's it's not gonna fall apart.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I love where you talked about sense of ownership, and I think we've talked about that a few times on this podcast. Obviously, everyone feeling like they're making an impact, feeling like they're driving themselves and the organization forward. But on the flip side of that, you know, especially in today's market, like, we were talking about with the layoffs and the reorganizations that can sometimes happen at that level that it almost doesn't matter the contribution that you made. Like, how do you coach someone through that?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Does that bring down morale if they see maybe half their, you know, half their colleagues have been laid off and now they're still at the company? But they're you know, they recognize that sense of ownership, and they're like, well, they didn't do anything wrong either. How do you keep morale high? How do you coach people through that?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I think one of the important things is to acknowledge all the emotions. Right? Is that it is hard to be in that situation. We had a situation like that last year where I think a bunch of our engineers were laid off late last year. And it is it is hard.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's scary. And, you know, as a leader, you need to acknowledge that. When you go in a room and say, well, everything is butterfly and sunflowers, and we're good, so let's get to work, people doesn't feel like that. Instead, get to a room and say, yes. I feel very bad today.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I, myself, am scared. I, myself, am not happy. I need actually some time to get my, you know, self up and running to be able to execute at my current job as a leader. So take that time too. It is heartbreaking to see people go around us, and I think as you're acknowledging that emotions, people feel more safe.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People feel that they're in an environment that their leaders feel the same as they are, and no one is trying to, you know, hide things from them or display things in a different way as they are. And that transparency, even on the feelings level, will help people navigate these situations. And be very frank with people. I mean, this is an environment we are in at tech where layoffs are happening. It's been happening forever.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>This is not something new. When you sign a contract with a company, you sign that you can exit anytime, and they can let you go anytime. And this is a norm, and I don't think people should really bound themselves to these things and things like this is the end, and all my contributions are gone. This is not the case. Even for people, the they got laid off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There have been many instances that we help them find their new role, so we are there for them. This wasn't something they have done. They are great engineers. There were many instances that I referred them to different places. We tried our best to find them new places, and, you know, business is business, and I think that's for people to understand.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If CEOs of companies getting laid off, you know, it's it's okay for employees to get laid off. So it's it's a norm. I guess, like, in that situation, just to summarize, just be very honest with people. Talk about their feelings. Acknowledge.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So there is the 7 stages of grief that we all know. You have to walk your team through that 7 stages. And don't do that in one day. Day 1, every stage in one day, and then in the 7th day, people are back to their norm. If you're actually acknowledging the emotion, give them time to come back.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Take that anger. Create spaces for people to talk to you, and have them feel safe by you opening up yourself as a leader and talking about how you feel about this. People continue to open up and just put out everything that they're feeling. There would be anger. There would be resentment.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There would be lack of trust for a while. The morale will get impact, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's the reality of the layoffs. And the companies who are doing that, they know that it will have an impact, Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Be prepared for productivity. Yeah. Productivity to drop, morale to drop, but but, you know, maybe after a few weeks, it returns back to the norm if you can manage through it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Be prepared because you can expect your team to perform the same way they've been. It's it's grief.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You you know, human beings, we can perform the same way. It's it's exactly the last process.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's take a step back in your journey because I'm always curious how people find their way to leadership, roles that they've had. And I believe part of your story is going through some of these transitions at previous companies that you're in. So I guess let's kind of take take it back to the beginning of your engineering journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, what were you doing? What were some of those roles that you had? And what does that transition from an individual contributor to leadership look like\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: for you? Sure. I wrote a blog post on this as my story called transition to leadership like a butterfly, if if you anyone wanna read, in detail. But I guess I started my engineering journey, like, years back as a back end engineer. So I was doing Java.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That time was Spring, Khybernet, all these technologies, and I had a lot of pivots. So I'm very curious person, and I wanted to pick up different things. So I pivoted from back end to front end. And then and decide, I did things like machine learning. I worked on self driving cars, did a little bit of AI here and there, studied system engineering while I was working, worked a little bit on NASA.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So so many different branches I had, where I was an engineer. So I wasn't only doing my work. I was very active even outside of my work. And then during that time, as I was exploring different things, was I got this role to becoming a software architect, which was one of the most interesting and fruitful roles I had as an engineer where I could work on, like, a system end to end and work with so many amazing people who had many, many years of experience. So as an engineer, I definitely had experience with all over, all the technologies that we have, across the stack.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think that made me very, versatile and being able to shift very quickly from, like, back end to front end or using different technologies and, bringing systems upgraded systems and having system understanding. How do you build complex systems that are highly aligned and loosely coupled? So how do you, like, handle risk? How do you test very well? So, that's part of my engineering journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But things change. You know? As I started, I was very more technical, and then all of the softer skills getting added as requirement for my role. Right? How do I run a meeting effectively?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And as I grew more and more, I had to deal with more and more people, and that people side got way more interesting for me. So, I talk about my library when I, when I write that blog post where, initially, most of my books were technical. When I started my engineering journey, you can find my library from a programming books. And then as this continues, there's, like, addition of softer skills book getting added to my library. And I would see myself reading those books more more than my technical books, and sometimes I ask myself, like, am I doing the right thing?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Am I, like, going away from my path and doing something new? But, I could say, like, my mindset as my library kind of get transitioned to the people side of it. And over time, I find that more interesting because if I can enable and empower people, and I've been told many times that this is your strength, If I can do that, I would have way more impact than just running myself and executing myself.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Mhmm. Do\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: you find that curiosity that you you found for evolving, you know, soft skills and and newer technologies? That that's definitely a theme that we've heard from almost everyone that we've talked to on this podcast, the curiosity to try new things and then also not be afraid to fail when you're trying new things, but just that curiosity in general. Do you find that to be a crucial a crucial trait to have for a leader? And if so, is that something that you you try and cultivate with your, oh, hey. Visit from the cat.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I was hoping he'd show up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I'm gonna show up. Show up. Yeah. Is that a trait that you is is that a trait that you cultivate in people that you're leading who who also show that they wanna be leaders? If they don't have that trait or if they do have it, is that something that you cultivate with them?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I mean, people have different personalities. That's the thing I've learned, and not everyone wanna branch this many branches, to be honest. Some people like to go in-depth in one thing, and they stay in one thing, and they they, like, create expertise. Some people like me, they they just like to explore, and they gets maybe bored. I I would like I feel whenever I feel comfortable, and I learn something and I know I'm good at it right now and I'm comfortable with it, now I start to, like, seek something else.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I challenge myself constantly. Not everyone is like that, and it's okay, not to be like that. I think people have very, very different personalities. And, if they are the opposite of the spectrum, doesn't mean that they're not successful, and they can't be greatly less. But for me, specifically, my personality was in that spectrum of, like, I I don't stay in one zone when I'm comfortable, and I'm constantly want to learn something new.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Every year, I pick a new technology to learn out of nowhere. Like, this year, I was looking at quantum computing. Is it related to my job? No. It's it's like out of nowhere I do learn it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's interesting to me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Is there any re that's a that's a hefty, hefty topic to start learning. Is there a reason you chose that, or you just you saw it, you had almost no idea what it was, and you just wanted to start exploring it?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Exactly. I saw it. I had no idea. I read things about it, how it solves problem, like, developing new drugs and proteins and working on human DNA, and I'm like, oh my god. This is this is super interesting.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>How does this work? And I started, like, listening to YouTube videos and then reading books about, like, quantum mechanics. So, yeah, I think it's just a curiosity and me wanting to pushing myself constantly out of my comfort zone and challenge myself. I feel that I'm if I feel like I'm in one place, I feel I'm stagnating. So it's it's all about personalities.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, we have different personality traits. I think my my my personality, I'm more of, like, an alpha personality where I have, like, very extreme growth mindset. But people have, like, different spectrums. Some people are very focused on one thing, and they're really great at it, and they don't go out of it. So I think that's totally fine to be in a different spectrum.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>As long as you're growing, it should be totally fine.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's also a future it sounds like it's also a future focus too. Right? Curious about what comes next. I mean, people studying people have been studying, obviously, AI and large language models for, you know, years already.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>We just, as the public, come to see it now. So maybe, like you're saying, quantum computing is that next frontier in 10, 20 years that sort of becomes more more mainstream.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: So, yeah, that that future focus is is interesting. I heard somewhere that, like, I guess at some point, quantum computers can essentially break all encrypted passwords that we have today. So it it could be an interesting problem to solve for tomorrow. Right? Like, how do we secure devices if not with, you know, with passwords and things?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that one thing that it was around 2015 when I went to ACM of ours. I don't know if anyone familiar. Association of Computer Machinery is, like, one of the most prestigious computer science, association, and this award is, like, a Nobel Prize for scientists. So that year, I think, was Bernice Lee who invented the Internet who got the award, and it was at the award ceremony.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there was a committee who is protecting our data. And it was very interesting to me because all of our data now is binary. And with quantum computing, be the future, and it's not transferrable, how are how are our data gonna be read with quantum machines? Who's gonna protect it? Who's gonna keep a repository of all of our data?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And it was surprising to me that there is a whole committee who's responsible for taking care of our data, you know, as a society. And, they're thinking about all of these things. It's like, how do we transfer this data to quantum later on? So people can look at their images, or look at their binary data. But, yeah, if when you go to these places and you see people forward thinking these many levels, you'll be amazed to hear, like, there are people actually thinking about this thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. And I also assume one thing I've heard you talk about in other podcasts as well is networking, especially as you just wanna become a better a better engineer, better employee, networking with people. And I'm sure those types of events also introduce you to people with really interesting things that they say and and even new topics that you can then, 5 years later, start to investigate yourself. And so what's the for for this podcast and for the people listening here, what is the value of networking that you, you know, find yourself and that you train for or or you you pass on to your mentees as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, a couple of things. First of all, don't network because you want something from people. Network before you want something from people.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So beat those relationships before it comes to, like, looking for a job or, you know, changing your role. And, I always call it vertical and horizontal net networking. So when you are at a role in in your company, you need both of them. So you start the first three months of your role to 1st 6 months doing vertical networking. And by vertical, I mean your team, your manager, your skip manager, and everyone in the chain, and your close partners, so anyone you work with day to day base.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So build relationship with those people. But after that 6 months, you start to do horizon networking, which means going outside your team to other teams that you don't know about. A lot of companies have so many tools. Like, I remember when I was at Netflix, there was this coffee chat where you could register, and you get randomly, matched with someone across the company and you could get a coffee with. At LinkedIn, we have, like, similar tools that you can go in and, you know, chat with people across the company.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If your company doesn't have 1, be the leader and build 1, so people can chat with each other. Or just simply, you know, ping people for, like, a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about them, introduce yourself, and, just connect with them. And then later on, you will be surprised how those people would show up in your journey, in your career. Not everyone have to give you a job or refer you. They will inspire you in so many ways as you're networking with them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You may have a question or you may get an idea and you can run by them or they would just be your advocates. They know you somehow. And when there is an opportunity, they remember you, and they put your name up on the table. So that's that's a thing. Always remember.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Don't forget that horizontal networking. People usually go to companies, and they just rely on the vertical networking. They don't know really anyone across the company, and it's similar outside. As I mentioned, your career is not bound to a company, so think the same thing. Vertical networking in your area, horizontal networking outside your area, network with recruiters in different companies, network with people outside your field.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>LinkedIn right now make it super easy for everybody. I think 10 years was their LinkedIn, but it wasn't as active as now where you could find people this easily. Now we are getting to the area of conferences being back again after COVID. So attended conferences, meetups, and chat with people, learn about them, and they will learn about you too. So that's a that's a good thing to be at.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there is so many things nowadays. I mean, you see all of these mentorship platforms that's showing up, which wasn't there 10 years ago when we started. That's a great way of networking, getting a mentor. It's a next level because that person is investing in you. And if someone is invest in you, they're way more willingly advocating for you later on than someone who just you meet in a conference.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So go on on these platforms. You know, there's a ton of them across the industry. Maybe get to the session with different mentors, people you aspire to be like them or people you they're ahead of you and you wanna get there. Learn how do they get there and ask for their advice. And then later on, when you build these relationships and talk to so many different people, they will invest in you and advocate for you whenever you are in your career.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. You mentioned LinkedIn was a good resource for that. Obviously, you know, that's bringing the entire network together and having making it easier for people to just reach out. In the past, like, I found it maybe awkward or or scary almost to reach out to people for advice. Like, what would you when you're reaching out to someone that doesn't know you at all completely cold and wanting to network with them, what are some tips that you would recommend on that initial sort of cold message?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I won't really do that. Right? I won't reach out to someone I don't know, and I don't advise that. That's why I'm saying, like, network before you actually need an advice, like, have a really broad people that you know. I won't send a cold message to someone and say, hey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I need an advice, and I know need 30 minutes of your time. People are super busy, especially people who are in better stages that can advise you. Right? Go get a mentor. Right now, there is so many ways of doing that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's all of these platforms. There's Play Doh, Mentor Cruise, MentorMe. I mean, there's so many of them out there that you can find these people on those platforms actually offering you time. So, go find those platforms and find those people, and that's respecting their time and also going there professionally and getting the advice you need. And that will build trust between you and that person because your mentor is now trusting you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you can send the cold message after you have couple of sessions with this person and say, you know what? I need an advice on this. What do I do? And they will always there for you. Like, I'll tell all my mentees, like, I'm your all time advocate.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Anytime I mentor, I'll be there for them, like, through their career. So, yes, it can happen. People, like, send them cold messages and say, hey. Can you make a referral? And I'm like, I I don't even know you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And that makes me question your judgment because how would you want me someone who actually doesn't know you at all to refer you to a role versus someone who's coming in and say, look. I'm looking for a job, and these are the things I wanna get better at. I have a good understanding of myself. Can you advise me how can I find a job? And then at that stage, when I have couple of chats with that person, may mock interview them, I know how their level and how they are.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I actually myself refer them to places that I think it's a great fit for them. So it happens very naturally when you build the relationship the right way. I am not a believer in those cold messages. Sometimes they work, but, I mostly believe in building relationships that are strong with people that have really good foundation and trust.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. That's that's really good advice. I think it's crucial these days to kind of build those are you when you open a position, are Are you when you open a position, are you first thinking of people who have built that type of a relationship with you, whether they're, you know, someone who would fit the position? And then, are you reaching out to your network of people saying, do you know somebody who might fill this position or might fit this position? I guess, which one or both?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, do you look for both of those types of sources for people when you're scaling your teams?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. So I try to be fair because I don't wanna only look at the people I know and advocate for them, only because I wanna give opportunity to people who I don't know and they can apply to the role. So we I usually build a pool of people where 10 to 20% of them are people I know and I know it's a good fit for this role, and the rest are opportunity for other people to apply to the role. And I take a look at those resumes too. But because I know these people, because I invested them, when a role pops up, I have them top of my mind, and I ping them that this is a role that's popped up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If you're interested, apply. But I'm not giving them extra benefits as other people. But the fact that I'm pinging them as a hiring manager and I'm saying apply, they will get an interview pretty easier than people who are applying to the roles, especially in this market. You know a role is popping up in 2 hours. There's 100 of applicants.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, if you have that relationships that people know you, top of their mind, that's the key to get a role is that people who advocate for you and put your name on the table without you wanting that. And that's a huge key to success in the in your career is that building those relationship that can result in this. So whenever I open a role, I have people on top of my mind that I know they're looking for a role and a great fit for this role. And, and I really do that because I know it benefit their role and benefit them. So I don't really refer people who are I don't think they're a good fit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, you know, they've been people that their life changed because of that. I mean, they get into really big tech companies. I had a mentee who was a waiter, and, afterwards, he got hired at Meta, and that's changed his life. So many of these stories, people who are just entering tech and, you know, it's really hard to find your first job and build relationships like this with people across the industry who can refer them and advocate for it. Them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So it's a it's a both mix up pool because fairness is super important when I hire. I wanna make sure I give, like, opportunity to all type of people, be as, you know, inclusive as possible to, like, all people from different backgrounds. Also, look at my team and say, like, okay. Is my team diverse enough? You know, what I'm needing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, do I have enough women at my team? I don't want, like, to having 1 woman in the room or 1 man in room to feel, like, isolated. I want everyone to feel belonging. So looking at the gaps on my team and see, like, what are those gaps that I'm looking for to fill in and really building that diverse pool of people, who are coming in to interview.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. And on the taking it from from the hiring side, I'm I'm curious putting you as the candidate. I know you were presented with options, you know, to maybe go to YouTube or Google and and LinkedIn, and, obviously, you you ultimately chose LinkedIn. When looking for a place to go, like, what was that deciding factor that made you choose LinkedIn and and framing that as advice for people who are listening? You know, if they're presented with so many options or so many different paths, like, how do you choose?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm. So, the framework I walk my mentees through is we do have a value table. Before you actually start job searching, you put together maximum five values you're looking into the next role. What are the things you really want in your next role? Example, for me, like, people mattered.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I wanna work in a culture that people come first. Growth mattered. I wanted to work in in a company that supports my growth. You know, technology mattered. I wanted to be a cutting edge technology.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Product mattered for me. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on before, and there are a couple of other things that I have in my value table. And whenever I am interviewing a company, and I always say that interview is a two way assessment. There are things you're assessing too. These values are the things you have to assess.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Ask the recruiter. Ask the hiring manager in your first interview. What is the growth framework on your team? Who was the last person who got promoted on your team? How does promotion happens?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>How do you support an engineer who falls behind? How do you onboard people onto new team? You know, all of these questions you can ask to assess how good is that company and that team role for you in terms of your value. Ask about the product if it matters. Like, how old is the product?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Is it a new thing? Why are we is this a bet? You know? Is it something that we're just gonna do right now and just, disappear, like, a year from now, or is this something the company wanna invest in long term? If these things matter for you, be prepared to ask these questions because a lot of people go into roles blindly just because it's at a good company, and then they're not happy there afterwards because they're not assessing in their interview, their role in the company.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then when you have these values and you're interviewing, I give a score from 1 to 10. 10 means they're great at it. 1, they're very poor. And, then when you're reaching to the offer stage, like top 3, top 2, interview that you're doing, you can see the differences. So, for example, for me, between YouTube and LinkedIn, it was a product.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on, and for me, YouTube was a streaming again. And I'm not a person to go in-depth. As you know, my personality, I love the breadth. I love to get things which is new. I never work on a social media platform like LinkedIn.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that was a a factor like, one of the biggest factor on that table that I picked LinkedIn over YouTube. So if you have that values, it's easy to to know, like, which one I I wanna go to and which value I wanna compromise, which one is compromiseable for me, which one is nice. For me, work life balance is not compromiseable. It's a value. I do a lot of things outside work, and work is not my only thing in life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, I wanted a company that, you know, I don't have to work 247 because I really don't admire that type of environment. So I think it's toxic. So what are those values and which one you cannot compromise and assessing those over your interview then when you're at a offer stage? You you don't have a hard time to know which one do you have to pick.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I I think I saw that you last end of towards the end of last year ran a marathon, and so those types of hobbies, I think, are pretty important. You know? Pedro and I play music music, and, I think Pedro is a coffee aficionado, so he loves making coffee.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I think it's important to have those things outside of work to to make sure you stay balanced. It sounds like you have several ways that you evolve yourself. You know, you you said you mentioned reading books and just being curious and learning new technologies. You probably also have your own mentor who you who you get advice from or several mentors. So is it is it hard, or do you just find it come naturally to still make sure that you're growing as a as a person?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Do those does that time come easy, or do you have to make sure that you, you know, spend a couple hours a week making sure that you're growing as a leader as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: That's a great question. I feel that's come naturally for me. It's not like I mostly build habits versus, like, I have to read, like, 3 hours per week. It's not like that. It comes as a habit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You all know the book, Atomic Habits. Right? It's like stacking things and building habits and systems. For me, mostly, it's systems in my life. And you can't have all of it at the same time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, you can't go to the gym and read books and be great at your work and get a mentor and run projects. It's not possible. You need to have balance long term, but in short term, you may not have a balance. So let's say if you if you wanna get better at something and you have, like, 3 books to finish, you may have to cut off from your gym time or running time or whatever you're doing at on the side for, like, a week. And then a week after, you know that what is cutting off was my running, and now I'm done with this book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So this is the things I'm gonna prioritize. I'm pulling it back up this week. I'm gonna focus on it more. So in long run, there is a balance between all of these things you're doing. But in short run, you prioritize between these things because you can't have all of these things together.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you build systems for yourself. Systems of learning. What's your system of learning? Is that books right now is so integrated into my life. It's something that, you know, I usually read in the morning when I wake up or if it's a book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Even learning how to read a book pretty fast is super important and summarize it so you can refer to it later on. But building that systems that actually can help you. For me, Fridays is my self reflection days. It's a day I have a session in the morning with my mentor. And after that session, I self reflect on, like, how what did I do this week?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What are the areas I did really well? What are the top things top five things I did at my work? Then that top five things goes to 1 on 1 next week with my manager. And this is kind of what we call it managing up. Like, how do you how do you manage up, and how do you tell your manager and your escape what are you doing, and it's getting harder as you're going higher and higher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that's that's a way of me managing up by taking that 5 outlines and putting in my 1 on 1 doc, and then self reflecting of what are the things I have to do next week, looking at my team structure, how everyone is doing, did I capture what they did greatly this week? I do that for my team too, like, every individual on the team. I have a running doc that I say these are the things they did really well this week. So when it comes to their performance review, I am very detailed for advocating for them, for every engineer, and I'm taking all that recognition in. What are the feedbacks I have to give them?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I'm very proactive on giving my direct reports feedback. I will let it sit. If someone is not doing something very well or there is there is a gap that they can do better, it would be right away. Every week, I'm thinking about their performance and how they did. So it won't be a surprise.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? There are some managers that suddenly come after, like, a year, and they say, you didn't do all of these things. And, that's hinder trust. The trust is broken at that stage. So the more honest and the more periodic and the smaller these pieces of feedbacks are and very targeted, the better those those people can grow.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So Friday, my system of self reflection into my life, plan of next week, How's my month look like? Am I having enough fun? How's my gym is going? How's my workouts? Relationship wise, am I spending time with people I love?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, sometimes I'm so much slanted at work. I forget about my friends. I'm like, next week, I'm gonna set time with my friends. Next week, I'm gonna spend more time talking to my mom. There are, like, 4 categories in my life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's career, which is one that you all have. It's love and relationships, like you being very socially, satisfied with, like, going out with people, your best friends, your family, your close relatives, spending time with them. For me, financial life matters. I'm doing on that. Am I, like, on track with my goals?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then, health, like, in terms of am I drinking enough water? Am I a happy person? How's my mental health? Do I need, like, some of the weeks that I'm very exhausted? I usually go to a lighter sort of workout.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I'm like, okay. This week, I'm gonna go do yoga instead of running because I want less intensity in my life. So how are you assessing that and then having that, like, long term balance? There is this book also called design your life where it talks about these categories, which is something I took from this book, And then, having that categories help me to balance. So I measure every category every week, and I see how I'm doing and which category requires attention.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I prioritize a week after.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: I like that. I have to check out that book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I'm I am writing that down because, there's definitely weeks or several weeks in a row where I might neglect 1 or 2 of those categories for sure. So that's that's a good book to write down.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Awesome. So, yeah, I think, we're coming close to time here for you know, thank you, Naz, for your for your time. I think maybe we could wrap it up with, you know, what's some advice that you would give to anyone who's listening, maybe something top of mind that's, you know, come across your mind over the last week or 2, that you'd like to just kinda pass along? And then where can everyone find you and and follow your journey?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. Oh, that's a hard question. I mean, something that has been top of my mind. I was reading yesterday a quote about someone who lays off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I think it was a company called Clarify, and she wrote couple of points I shared on my LinkedIn as opposed to where things I've learned from layoffs. And one of it is, like, really thinking about how do you not bound to one job and then have some back ups, make sure that that happens. The other was, like, really thinking about yourself and getting yourself back up. And, one point that was funny, and a lot of people didn't agree, is that people are there for you when you get laid off. But the reality is they're not.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Everyone having their own job, and you can expect that you're getting laid off and everyone is there for you. And now your friends are taking you to their companies. I mean, they do their best, but it's not the case. So be prepared. I mean, be prepared.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Have your resume ready all the time. I mean, don't just get on your resume when you need a job. Your resume is a reflection of you, and it needs to be ready and updated. Your LinkedIn needs to be ready and updated with latest things you do. And then always and always have 1 or 2 interview per year.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What are you doing with the company? Even if you're at a place that you're comfortable, always, always interview. You are you'll be at the ready state all the time. Also, you learn about the market and what's going on, in other companies when you interview with them, and it's a it's a way of also networking. So when you interview with hiring managers and they get to know you, later on when they have a role and if you perform there in that interview, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So be ready, before something happens is actually the key in this market. And knowing that your work is not bound to a company. You're taking your work to different companies' missions and vision and enabling part of their journey as a really amazing engineer. And, none of us have to be in a place forever. At least in tech, it's not the case.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Awesome. Yeah. I I think I think you also once mentioned sorry to sorry to jump in there. I think you also once mentioned around the interviewing process. You also just received feedback feedback from those people about how you present on a camera or your answers, or you get some valuable feedback from those interviews as well.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. And be very transparent when you do those interviews. Like, I'm not actively looking, but this looks like a good opportunity. I wanna I wanna assess and learn more about this company. Why not doing an interview?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And putting yourself in those situations more often makes you more comfortable. You'll be more confident. So if people wanna find me, I'm on LinkedIn, nazdaalum. Also, you can find all my handles on my website, nazda dev, and feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about anything I mentioned. Hopefully, we can have those books listed, John, somewhere, so people can find it on-site reference.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say I'm gonna keep in contact with you just to see what books you're reading. Awesome, Naz. Well, yeah, I I really I personally found a lot of value from this conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's a lot of things that, you mentioned that I just tend to forget over time, and so I definitely found some great value out of this conversation. Everyone, go follow her on LinkedIn. Pedro's battery is exhausted.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: My battery is exhausted, so my camera died, but I am here. Thank you, Nez. Thanks so much for your time. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me. It was great.\u003C/p>","Oh, hey. It's a visit from the cat. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher. Yeah. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks. Today, we have Naz. Naz, first off, congratulations on becoming a naturalized US citizen today. That's very exciting, very exciting. Sometimes I take that for granted. So it's very exciting when people I know have that happen. But, yeah, we'll we'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you let the people know just a brief background into who you are, maybe just a brief introduction into where you are, and then we'll get into the conversation. Absolutely. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon wherever you are in the world. My name is Naz. I am currently an engineering leader at LinkedIn, leading media, and, previously worked as as a engineering manager and software engineer at Netflix. My background to tech was very traditional, so studied bachelor and master's, in computer engineering and afterwards, systems engineering. So, yeah, it's been, 10 plus years that I am in San Francisco Bay Area, and I got my first job here right after school. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for that quick intro. As this is kind of a a a podcast focus on leadership, I figured we'd start on that leadership trend. Right now, obviously, in in tech and even starting outside of tech, there's a lot of organizational changes happening and tech layoffs and everything that's, you know, kind of on the front the front of everyone's mind. So I guess let's let's kinda start off on, an interesting take. You know, what what are some of the challenges that you see in today's market, in today's, environment being a leadership at a company like LinkedIn in in in in a tech, you know, a tech world where there's a lot of instability and uncertainty? Yeah. That's that's a great question. Unstability and uncertainty. Being comfortable with both of those and making those a norm, I guess that's the biggest change that we are seeing. And to frame it better, maybe it's just being more comfortable with a lot of change as it's coming your way and be more flexible to perform, knowing all of these uncertainties around you. So, as a leader, it's it's very hard sometimes to motivate the team and uplevel engineers when you are in this situation, an industry that everyone are hesitant to put their 100% in. So how do you do that? How do you motivate people? Well, you know, things around you are so chaotic. People are not sure if they're gonna get laid off or not. There is not more of certainty to the mission of the company. I guess, like, couple of things we are doing as a company is being very transparent with engineers if we have layoffs or not. So we are very clear that we don't have layoffs currently. If we know there's more layoffs, we'll let everyone know. So people will rest assure that there's no surprises. And I think it's been happening mostly in a lot of big takes as a surprise, which just has to change for people. It needs to be very more transparent. Yeah. That's that's a good point. And I think that, like, you know, especially at start ups and smaller companies, these things can turn on a dime on people, especially when, you know, maybe the company isn't doing so well and people get shocked. And in those environments, I've seen a lot of managers and and colleagues get together and at least share information so that they can prepare for those next steps. Is that something that you've seen happen before? And, how would you recommend the first step if you do get laid off? What that first step is in finding that new position is is, like, would you recommend applying to a bunch of, you know, jobs that you're interested in or really reaching out to that network? I will recommend take a 2 day off for yourself and do a self reflection. I've been through a layoff. So my last job at Netflix, I was laid off. And, I was on both sides of the coin, and seen both sides. So it's it's hard to get laid off. It's never easy, especially if you're performing and you're a great engineer and you're really asking yourself questions why. You know, I have dedicated to this amount of time to this company mission. I have put my all 100% in to develop features. I cared for our users, and now you're telling me to go. And this is not a great feeling for anybody. So I would say the first thing you do is just taking time off and self reflect and try to understand that this is not you, and try to think about your strengths. So what are the things that I'm great at? Because a lot of times when things happen, I see people start to blame themselves and really focusing on shortcomings. These are the things I don't have. Maybe that's why I got laid off because maybe I wasn't great at this. Oh, how can I find a job now? I'm not great at that. But instead of that, try to be focusing on your strength and see the things that you are getting hired for at the current role and then what are the values that you can take into the next role and next company. And, you know, I coach a lot of engineers nowadays, and I always even say to my team, my direct reports that you're not bound to any company. Your career is you. So when you go to a company, don't bound yourself to a company specifically. Think longer term about your career and know that layoff can happen anytime. So you enter a company. You do your best. You're bringing value with your talent. If that's an exit, then that's a goodbye in in in different form, and you're taking those values and strengths to another company and bring more value for more people around the world. And that's not the end of your career journey. That's true. Yeah. And Yeah. Go ahead, John. Yeah. I've that brings up a good point, and I'll I'll branch us into more of some questions around your leadership style because I I was watching a podcast that you were on previously this morning, and you mentioned something really interesting. You said you don't wanna be a leader on a team of followers. You wanna be a leader on a team of leaders. And so what what's some of the advice in the in the typical regular day to day that you provide to your team? You know? Because it sounds like you want to train your team to be self sufficient, hire smart people who can solve problems, and you wanna lead people who are leaders, which in the end makes you a more valuable employee anyway. So what are some of those other values that you have as a leader? Number 1, leading a team of leaders, but what are some other things that you train your team, some values that you train your team to have so that they're just a more valuable employee in general? Mhmm. I wouldn't call it a valuable employee. I would call them call them great engineers, who can go to any any company or even build their own products. Yeah. That would that was a concept I, read a book called turn the ship around. It's just an amazing leadership book, and, it talks about, how do you empower your team to make decisions on on their own. And that's so true. And it's a very easy statement, but it's not easy in practice. There's a lot of things required for that to be able to do that for your team. Autonomy. Like, how do you, as a leader, get all the information to the team that they need? How do you onboard them onto the mission vision? How do you take them to the front lines, how do you get them areas of ownership. And at the same time, as you are in the back of the things, they're also accountable for their work because you don't wanna leave everyone and go. Not everyone feel accountable. People sometimes just leave things, and they don't follow-up. So how do they be very proactive, and feel ownership of their area? So I think, like, the most important thing is if the person thinks and feels that they are creating the impact and the impact is visible, they feel more ownership to putting in the work. So for me, also, how do I recognize this engineer? How do I shed light on their work in different forums? Let's say, like, if if I like, it's a upper leadership type of forum. How do I present their work? How do I have them come and demo and show their work? So they feel they own it, and they feel the impact and importance of their work. And for me, not all the projects have the huge, huge impact. So how do you actually empower engineers to feel that sense of ownership even on projects which is like migration? And, I think for us is whenever we wanna do something, we wanna think about the why of doing it, and it's one of LinkedIn's engineering principles. We need to have a very strong why. If you have an initiative, you have an idea why are you wanna do this. And if that why is very strong, that correlates to impact. It means there is an impact. And if there is an impact and if I'm as a leader being able to give all the credit to the person who's doing the work, showcase all the light on that person, you know, and then really reward them based on their impact that they're having. They will feel the sense of ownership, and they actually execute pretty well. So that's what it says in that book is that also in addition to this, give them all the knowledge they need to perform and, have them make mistakes. I think that's one of the scariest things as a leader to leave the team to make mistakes, and it needs to be controlled mistakes. So you you need to know when you can leave like an engineer. You know what's the right solution is, but you're not saying that. You you have them take their path. You have them make mistakes, and you have them learn from those. And a lot of time when people become managers newly, they try to control that. Right? They try to make sure everything is done right on the team, and there's no area of mistake. But mistakes are very crucial for people development. So as a leader, we need to be able to have those controlled risk so people can make mistakes on areas that's it's not gonna fall apart. Yeah. I love where you talked about sense of ownership, and I think we've talked about that a few times on this podcast. Obviously, everyone feeling like they're making an impact, feeling like they're driving themselves and the organization forward. But on the flip side of that, you know, especially in today's market, like, we were talking about with the layoffs and the reorganizations that can sometimes happen at that level that it almost doesn't matter the contribution that you made. Like, how do you coach someone through that? Does that bring down morale if they see maybe half their, you know, half their colleagues have been laid off and now they're still at the company? But they're you know, they recognize that sense of ownership, and they're like, well, they didn't do anything wrong either. How do you keep morale high? How do you coach people through that? I think one of the important things is to acknowledge all the emotions. Right? Is that it is hard to be in that situation. We had a situation like that last year where I think a bunch of our engineers were laid off late last year. And it is it is hard. It's scary. And, you know, as a leader, you need to acknowledge that. When you go in a room and say, well, everything is butterfly and sunflowers, and we're good, so let's get to work, people doesn't feel like that. Instead, get to a room and say, yes. I feel very bad today. I, myself, am scared. I, myself, am not happy. I need actually some time to get my, you know, self up and running to be able to execute at my current job as a leader. So take that time too. It is heartbreaking to see people go around us, and I think as you're acknowledging that emotions, people feel more safe. People feel that they're in an environment that their leaders feel the same as they are, and no one is trying to, you know, hide things from them or display things in a different way as they are. And that transparency, even on the feelings level, will help people navigate these situations. And be very frank with people. I mean, this is an environment we are in at tech where layoffs are happening. It's been happening forever. This is not something new. When you sign a contract with a company, you sign that you can exit anytime, and they can let you go anytime. And this is a norm, and I don't think people should really bound themselves to these things and things like this is the end, and all my contributions are gone. This is not the case. Even for people, the they got laid off. There have been many instances that we help them find their new role, so we are there for them. This wasn't something they have done. They are great engineers. There were many instances that I referred them to different places. We tried our best to find them new places, and, you know, business is business, and I think that's for people to understand. If CEOs of companies getting laid off, you know, it's it's okay for employees to get laid off. So it's it's a norm. I guess, like, in that situation, just to summarize, just be very honest with people. Talk about their feelings. Acknowledge. So there is the 7 stages of grief that we all know. You have to walk your team through that 7 stages. And don't do that in one day. Day 1, every stage in one day, and then in the 7th day, people are back to their norm. If you're actually acknowledging the emotion, give them time to come back. Take that anger. Create spaces for people to talk to you, and have them feel safe by you opening up yourself as a leader and talking about how you feel about this. People continue to open up and just put out everything that they're feeling. There would be anger. There would be resentment. There would be lack of trust for a while. The morale will get impact, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's the reality of the layoffs. And the companies who are doing that, they know that it will have an impact, Yeah. Yeah. Be prepared for productivity. Yeah. Productivity to drop, morale to drop, but but, you know, maybe after a few weeks, it returns back to the norm if you can manage through it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Be prepared because you can expect your team to perform the same way they've been. It's it's grief. You you know, human beings, we can perform the same way. It's it's exactly the last process. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's take a step back in your journey because I'm always curious how people find their way to leadership, roles that they've had. And I believe part of your story is going through some of these transitions at previous companies that you're in. So I guess let's kind of take take it back to the beginning of your engineering journey. You know, what were you doing? What were some of those roles that you had? And what does that transition from an individual contributor to leadership look like for you? Sure. I wrote a blog post on this as my story called transition to leadership like a butterfly, if if you anyone wanna read, in detail. But I guess I started my engineering journey, like, years back as a back end engineer. So I was doing Java. That time was Spring, Khybernet, all these technologies, and I had a lot of pivots. So I'm very curious person, and I wanted to pick up different things. So I pivoted from back end to front end. And then and decide, I did things like machine learning. I worked on self driving cars, did a little bit of AI here and there, studied system engineering while I was working, worked a little bit on NASA. So so many different branches I had, where I was an engineer. So I wasn't only doing my work. I was very active even outside of my work. And then during that time, as I was exploring different things, was I got this role to becoming a software architect, which was one of the most interesting and fruitful roles I had as an engineer where I could work on, like, a system end to end and work with so many amazing people who had many, many years of experience. So as an engineer, I definitely had experience with all over, all the technologies that we have, across the stack. And I think that made me very, versatile and being able to shift very quickly from, like, back end to front end or using different technologies and, bringing systems upgraded systems and having system understanding. How do you build complex systems that are highly aligned and loosely coupled? So how do you, like, handle risk? How do you test very well? So, that's part of my engineering journey. But things change. You know? As I started, I was very more technical, and then all of the softer skills getting added as requirement for my role. Right? How do I run a meeting effectively? And as I grew more and more, I had to deal with more and more people, and that people side got way more interesting for me. So, I talk about my library when I, when I write that blog post where, initially, most of my books were technical. When I started my engineering journey, you can find my library from a programming books. And then as this continues, there's, like, addition of softer skills book getting added to my library. And I would see myself reading those books more more than my technical books, and sometimes I ask myself, like, am I doing the right thing? Am I, like, going away from my path and doing something new? But, I could say, like, my mindset as my library kind of get transitioned to the people side of it. And over time, I find that more interesting because if I can enable and empower people, and I've been told many times that this is your strength, If I can do that, I would have way more impact than just running myself and executing myself. Mhmm. Do you find that curiosity that you you found for evolving, you know, soft skills and and newer technologies? That that's definitely a theme that we've heard from almost everyone that we've talked to on this podcast, the curiosity to try new things and then also not be afraid to fail when you're trying new things, but just that curiosity in general. Do you find that to be a crucial a crucial trait to have for a leader? And if so, is that something that you you try and cultivate with your, oh, hey. Visit from the cat. I was hoping he'd show up. Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher. I'm gonna show up. Show up. Yeah. Is that a trait that you is is that a trait that you cultivate in people that you're leading who who also show that they wanna be leaders? If they don't have that trait or if they do have it, is that something that you cultivate with them? I mean, people have different personalities. That's the thing I've learned, and not everyone wanna branch this many branches, to be honest. Some people like to go in-depth in one thing, and they stay in one thing, and they they, like, create expertise. Some people like me, they they just like to explore, and they gets maybe bored. I I would like I feel whenever I feel comfortable, and I learn something and I know I'm good at it right now and I'm comfortable with it, now I start to, like, seek something else. I challenge myself constantly. Not everyone is like that, and it's okay, not to be like that. I think people have very, very different personalities. And, if they are the opposite of the spectrum, doesn't mean that they're not successful, and they can't be greatly less. But for me, specifically, my personality was in that spectrum of, like, I I don't stay in one zone when I'm comfortable, and I'm constantly want to learn something new. Every year, I pick a new technology to learn out of nowhere. Like, this year, I was looking at quantum computing. Is it related to my job? No. It's it's like out of nowhere I do learn it. It's interesting to me. Is there any re that's a that's a hefty, hefty topic to start learning. Is there a reason you chose that, or you just you saw it, you had almost no idea what it was, and you just wanted to start exploring it? Exactly. I saw it. I had no idea. I read things about it, how it solves problem, like, developing new drugs and proteins and working on human DNA, and I'm like, oh my god. This is this is super interesting. How does this work? And I started, like, listening to YouTube videos and then reading books about, like, quantum mechanics. So, yeah, I think it's just a curiosity and me wanting to pushing myself constantly out of my comfort zone and challenge myself. I feel that I'm if I feel like I'm in one place, I feel I'm stagnating. So it's it's all about personalities. Like, we have different personality traits. I think my my my personality, I'm more of, like, an alpha personality where I have, like, very extreme growth mindset. But people have, like, different spectrums. Some people are very focused on one thing, and they're really great at it, and they don't go out of it. So I think that's totally fine to be in a different spectrum. As long as you're growing, it should be totally fine. Yeah. I think it's also a future it sounds like it's also a future focus too. Right? Curious about what comes next. I mean, people studying people have been studying, obviously, AI and large language models for, you know, years already. We just, as the public, come to see it now. So maybe, like you're saying, quantum computing is that next frontier in 10, 20 years that sort of becomes more more mainstream. Yeah. So, yeah, that that future focus is is interesting. I heard somewhere that, like, I guess at some point, quantum computers can essentially break all encrypted passwords that we have today. So it it could be an interesting problem to solve for tomorrow. Right? Like, how do we secure devices if not with, you know, with passwords and things? Yeah. I think that one thing that it was around 2015 when I went to ACM of ours. I don't know if anyone familiar. Association of Computer Machinery is, like, one of the most prestigious computer science, association, and this award is, like, a Nobel Prize for scientists. So that year, I think, was Bernice Lee who invented the Internet who got the award, and it was at the award ceremony. And there was a committee who is protecting our data. And it was very interesting to me because all of our data now is binary. And with quantum computing, be the future, and it's not transferrable, how are how are our data gonna be read with quantum machines? Who's gonna protect it? Who's gonna keep a repository of all of our data? And it was surprising to me that there is a whole committee who's responsible for taking care of our data, you know, as a society. And, they're thinking about all of these things. It's like, how do we transfer this data to quantum later on? So people can look at their images, or look at their binary data. But, yeah, if when you go to these places and you see people forward thinking these many levels, you'll be amazed to hear, like, there are people actually thinking about this thing. Yeah. And I also assume one thing I've heard you talk about in other podcasts as well is networking, especially as you just wanna become a better a better engineer, better employee, networking with people. And I'm sure those types of events also introduce you to people with really interesting things that they say and and even new topics that you can then, 5 years later, start to investigate yourself. And so what's the for for this podcast and for the people listening here, what is the value of networking that you, you know, find yourself and that you train for or or you you pass on to your mentees as well? Yeah. That's a good question. Well, a couple of things. First of all, don't network because you want something from people. Network before you want something from people. So beat those relationships before it comes to, like, looking for a job or, you know, changing your role. And, I always call it vertical and horizontal net networking. So when you are at a role in in your company, you need both of them. So you start the first three months of your role to 1st 6 months doing vertical networking. And by vertical, I mean your team, your manager, your skip manager, and everyone in the chain, and your close partners, so anyone you work with day to day base. So build relationship with those people. But after that 6 months, you start to do horizon networking, which means going outside your team to other teams that you don't know about. A lot of companies have so many tools. Like, I remember when I was at Netflix, there was this coffee chat where you could register, and you get randomly, matched with someone across the company and you could get a coffee with. At LinkedIn, we have, like, similar tools that you can go in and, you know, chat with people across the company. If your company doesn't have 1, be the leader and build 1, so people can chat with each other. Or just simply, you know, ping people for, like, a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about them, introduce yourself, and, just connect with them. And then later on, you will be surprised how those people would show up in your journey, in your career. Not everyone have to give you a job or refer you. They will inspire you in so many ways as you're networking with them. You may have a question or you may get an idea and you can run by them or they would just be your advocates. They know you somehow. And when there is an opportunity, they remember you, and they put your name up on the table. So that's that's a thing. Always remember. Don't forget that horizontal networking. People usually go to companies, and they just rely on the vertical networking. They don't know really anyone across the company, and it's similar outside. As I mentioned, your career is not bound to a company, so think the same thing. Vertical networking in your area, horizontal networking outside your area, network with recruiters in different companies, network with people outside your field. LinkedIn right now make it super easy for everybody. I think 10 years was their LinkedIn, but it wasn't as active as now where you could find people this easily. Now we are getting to the area of conferences being back again after COVID. So attended conferences, meetups, and chat with people, learn about them, and they will learn about you too. So that's a that's a good thing to be at. And there is so many things nowadays. I mean, you see all of these mentorship platforms that's showing up, which wasn't there 10 years ago when we started. That's a great way of networking, getting a mentor. It's a next level because that person is investing in you. And if someone is invest in you, they're way more willingly advocating for you later on than someone who just you meet in a conference. So go on on these platforms. You know, there's a ton of them across the industry. Maybe get to the session with different mentors, people you aspire to be like them or people you they're ahead of you and you wanna get there. Learn how do they get there and ask for their advice. And then later on, when you build these relationships and talk to so many different people, they will invest in you and advocate for you whenever you are in your career. Yeah. You mentioned LinkedIn was a good resource for that. Obviously, you know, that's bringing the entire network together and having making it easier for people to just reach out. In the past, like, I found it maybe awkward or or scary almost to reach out to people for advice. Like, what would you when you're reaching out to someone that doesn't know you at all completely cold and wanting to network with them, what are some tips that you would recommend on that initial sort of cold message? I won't really do that. Right? I won't reach out to someone I don't know, and I don't advise that. That's why I'm saying, like, network before you actually need an advice, like, have a really broad people that you know. I won't send a cold message to someone and say, hey. I need an advice, and I know need 30 minutes of your time. People are super busy, especially people who are in better stages that can advise you. Right? Go get a mentor. Right now, there is so many ways of doing that. There's all of these platforms. There's Play Doh, Mentor Cruise, MentorMe. I mean, there's so many of them out there that you can find these people on those platforms actually offering you time. So, go find those platforms and find those people, and that's respecting their time and also going there professionally and getting the advice you need. And that will build trust between you and that person because your mentor is now trusting you. And then you can send the cold message after you have couple of sessions with this person and say, you know what? I need an advice on this. What do I do? And they will always there for you. Like, I'll tell all my mentees, like, I'm your all time advocate. Anytime I mentor, I'll be there for them, like, through their career. So, yes, it can happen. People, like, send them cold messages and say, hey. Can you make a referral? And I'm like, I I don't even know you. And that makes me question your judgment because how would you want me someone who actually doesn't know you at all to refer you to a role versus someone who's coming in and say, look. I'm looking for a job, and these are the things I wanna get better at. I have a good understanding of myself. Can you advise me how can I find a job? And then at that stage, when I have couple of chats with that person, may mock interview them, I know how their level and how they are. And I actually myself refer them to places that I think it's a great fit for them. So it happens very naturally when you build the relationship the right way. I am not a believer in those cold messages. Sometimes they work, but, I mostly believe in building relationships that are strong with people that have really good foundation and trust. Yeah. That's that's really good advice. I think it's crucial these days to kind of build those are you when you open a position, are Are you when you open a position, are you first thinking of people who have built that type of a relationship with you, whether they're, you know, someone who would fit the position? And then, are you reaching out to your network of people saying, do you know somebody who might fill this position or might fit this position? I guess, which one or both? You know, do you look for both of those types of sources for people when you're scaling your teams? Yeah. So I try to be fair because I don't wanna only look at the people I know and advocate for them, only because I wanna give opportunity to people who I don't know and they can apply to the role. So we I usually build a pool of people where 10 to 20% of them are people I know and I know it's a good fit for this role, and the rest are opportunity for other people to apply to the role. And I take a look at those resumes too. But because I know these people, because I invested them, when a role pops up, I have them top of my mind, and I ping them that this is a role that's popped up. If you're interested, apply. But I'm not giving them extra benefits as other people. But the fact that I'm pinging them as a hiring manager and I'm saying apply, they will get an interview pretty easier than people who are applying to the roles, especially in this market. You know a role is popping up in 2 hours. There's 100 of applicants. And, if you have that relationships that people know you, top of their mind, that's the key to get a role is that people who advocate for you and put your name on the table without you wanting that. And that's a huge key to success in the in your career is that building those relationship that can result in this. So whenever I open a role, I have people on top of my mind that I know they're looking for a role and a great fit for this role. And, and I really do that because I know it benefit their role and benefit them. So I don't really refer people who are I don't think they're a good fit. And, you know, they've been people that their life changed because of that. I mean, they get into really big tech companies. I had a mentee who was a waiter, and, afterwards, he got hired at Meta, and that's changed his life. So many of these stories, people who are just entering tech and, you know, it's really hard to find your first job and build relationships like this with people across the industry who can refer them and advocate for it. Them. So it's a it's a both mix up pool because fairness is super important when I hire. I wanna make sure I give, like, opportunity to all type of people, be as, you know, inclusive as possible to, like, all people from different backgrounds. Also, look at my team and say, like, okay. Is my team diverse enough? You know, what I'm needing. Like, do I have enough women at my team? I don't want, like, to having 1 woman in the room or 1 man in room to feel, like, isolated. I want everyone to feel belonging. So looking at the gaps on my team and see, like, what are those gaps that I'm looking for to fill in and really building that diverse pool of people, who are coming in to interview. Yeah. And on the taking it from from the hiring side, I'm I'm curious putting you as the candidate. I know you were presented with options, you know, to maybe go to YouTube or Google and and LinkedIn, and, obviously, you you ultimately chose LinkedIn. When looking for a place to go, like, what was that deciding factor that made you choose LinkedIn and and framing that as advice for people who are listening? You know, if they're presented with so many options or so many different paths, like, how do you choose? Mhmm. So, the framework I walk my mentees through is we do have a value table. Before you actually start job searching, you put together maximum five values you're looking into the next role. What are the things you really want in your next role? Example, for me, like, people mattered. I wanna work in a culture that people come first. Growth mattered. I wanted to work in in a company that supports my growth. You know, technology mattered. I wanted to be a cutting edge technology. Product mattered for me. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on before, and there are a couple of other things that I have in my value table. And whenever I am interviewing a company, and I always say that interview is a two way assessment. There are things you're assessing too. These values are the things you have to assess. Ask the recruiter. Ask the hiring manager in your first interview. What is the growth framework on your team? Who was the last person who got promoted on your team? How does promotion happens? How do you support an engineer who falls behind? How do you onboard people onto new team? You know, all of these questions you can ask to assess how good is that company and that team role for you in terms of your value. Ask about the product if it matters. Like, how old is the product? Is it a new thing? Why are we is this a bet? You know? Is it something that we're just gonna do right now and just, disappear, like, a year from now, or is this something the company wanna invest in long term? If these things matter for you, be prepared to ask these questions because a lot of people go into roles blindly just because it's at a good company, and then they're not happy there afterwards because they're not assessing in their interview, their role in the company. And then when you have these values and you're interviewing, I give a score from 1 to 10. 10 means they're great at it. 1, they're very poor. And, then when you're reaching to the offer stage, like top 3, top 2, interview that you're doing, you can see the differences. So, for example, for me, between YouTube and LinkedIn, it was a product. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on, and for me, YouTube was a streaming again. And I'm not a person to go in-depth. As you know, my personality, I love the breadth. I love to get things which is new. I never work on a social media platform like LinkedIn. So that was a a factor like, one of the biggest factor on that table that I picked LinkedIn over YouTube. So if you have that values, it's easy to to know, like, which one I I wanna go to and which value I wanna compromise, which one is compromiseable for me, which one is nice. For me, work life balance is not compromiseable. It's a value. I do a lot of things outside work, and work is not my only thing in life. So, I wanted a company that, you know, I don't have to work 247 because I really don't admire that type of environment. So I think it's toxic. So what are those values and which one you cannot compromise and assessing those over your interview then when you're at a offer stage? You you don't have a hard time to know which one do you have to pick. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I saw that you last end of towards the end of last year ran a marathon, and so those types of hobbies, I think, are pretty important. You know? Pedro and I play music music, and, I think Pedro is a coffee aficionado, so he loves making coffee. So I think it's important to have those things outside of work to to make sure you stay balanced. It sounds like you have several ways that you evolve yourself. You know, you you said you mentioned reading books and just being curious and learning new technologies. You probably also have your own mentor who you who you get advice from or several mentors. So is it is it hard, or do you just find it come naturally to still make sure that you're growing as a as a person? Do those does that time come easy, or do you have to make sure that you, you know, spend a couple hours a week making sure that you're growing as a leader as well? That's a great question. I feel that's come naturally for me. It's not like I mostly build habits versus, like, I have to read, like, 3 hours per week. It's not like that. It comes as a habit. You all know the book, Atomic Habits. Right? It's like stacking things and building habits and systems. For me, mostly, it's systems in my life. And you can't have all of it at the same time. Like, you can't go to the gym and read books and be great at your work and get a mentor and run projects. It's not possible. You need to have balance long term, but in short term, you may not have a balance. So let's say if you if you wanna get better at something and you have, like, 3 books to finish, you may have to cut off from your gym time or running time or whatever you're doing at on the side for, like, a week. And then a week after, you know that what is cutting off was my running, and now I'm done with this book. So this is the things I'm gonna prioritize. I'm pulling it back up this week. I'm gonna focus on it more. So in long run, there is a balance between all of these things you're doing. But in short run, you prioritize between these things because you can't have all of these things together. And then you build systems for yourself. Systems of learning. What's your system of learning? Is that books right now is so integrated into my life. It's something that, you know, I usually read in the morning when I wake up or if it's a book. Even learning how to read a book pretty fast is super important and summarize it so you can refer to it later on. But building that systems that actually can help you. For me, Fridays is my self reflection days. It's a day I have a session in the morning with my mentor. And after that session, I self reflect on, like, how what did I do this week? What are the areas I did really well? What are the top things top five things I did at my work? Then that top five things goes to 1 on 1 next week with my manager. And this is kind of what we call it managing up. Like, how do you how do you manage up, and how do you tell your manager and your escape what are you doing, and it's getting harder as you're going higher and higher. So that's that's a way of me managing up by taking that 5 outlines and putting in my 1 on 1 doc, and then self reflecting of what are the things I have to do next week, looking at my team structure, how everyone is doing, did I capture what they did greatly this week? I do that for my team too, like, every individual on the team. I have a running doc that I say these are the things they did really well this week. So when it comes to their performance review, I am very detailed for advocating for them, for every engineer, and I'm taking all that recognition in. What are the feedbacks I have to give them? I'm very proactive on giving my direct reports feedback. I will let it sit. If someone is not doing something very well or there is there is a gap that they can do better, it would be right away. Every week, I'm thinking about their performance and how they did. So it won't be a surprise. You know? There are some managers that suddenly come after, like, a year, and they say, you didn't do all of these things. And, that's hinder trust. The trust is broken at that stage. So the more honest and the more periodic and the smaller these pieces of feedbacks are and very targeted, the better those those people can grow. So Friday, my system of self reflection into my life, plan of next week, How's my month look like? Am I having enough fun? How's my gym is going? How's my workouts? Relationship wise, am I spending time with people I love? Like, sometimes I'm so much slanted at work. I forget about my friends. I'm like, next week, I'm gonna set time with my friends. Next week, I'm gonna spend more time talking to my mom. There are, like, 4 categories in my life. It's career, which is one that you all have. It's love and relationships, like you being very socially, satisfied with, like, going out with people, your best friends, your family, your close relatives, spending time with them. For me, financial life matters. I'm doing on that. Am I, like, on track with my goals? And then, health, like, in terms of am I drinking enough water? Am I a happy person? How's my mental health? Do I need, like, some of the weeks that I'm very exhausted? I usually go to a lighter sort of workout. And I'm like, okay. This week, I'm gonna go do yoga instead of running because I want less intensity in my life. So how are you assessing that and then having that, like, long term balance? There is this book also called design your life where it talks about these categories, which is something I took from this book, And then, having that categories help me to balance. So I measure every category every week, and I see how I'm doing and which category requires attention. I prioritize a week after. I like that. I have to check out that book. Yeah. I'm I am writing that down because, there's definitely weeks or several weeks in a row where I might neglect 1 or 2 of those categories for sure. So that's that's a good book to write down. Awesome. So, yeah, I think, we're coming close to time here for you know, thank you, Naz, for your for your time. I think maybe we could wrap it up with, you know, what's some advice that you would give to anyone who's listening, maybe something top of mind that's, you know, come across your mind over the last week or 2, that you'd like to just kinda pass along? And then where can everyone find you and and follow your journey? Yeah. Sure. Oh, that's a hard question. I mean, something that has been top of my mind. I was reading yesterday a quote about someone who lays off. I think it was a company called Clarify, and she wrote couple of points I shared on my LinkedIn as opposed to where things I've learned from layoffs. And one of it is, like, really thinking about how do you not bound to one job and then have some back ups, make sure that that happens. The other was, like, really thinking about yourself and getting yourself back up. And, one point that was funny, and a lot of people didn't agree, is that people are there for you when you get laid off. But the reality is they're not. Everyone having their own job, and you can expect that you're getting laid off and everyone is there for you. And now your friends are taking you to their companies. I mean, they do their best, but it's not the case. So be prepared. I mean, be prepared. Have your resume ready all the time. I mean, don't just get on your resume when you need a job. Your resume is a reflection of you, and it needs to be ready and updated. Your LinkedIn needs to be ready and updated with latest things you do. And then always and always have 1 or 2 interview per year. What are you doing with the company? Even if you're at a place that you're comfortable, always, always interview. You are you'll be at the ready state all the time. Also, you learn about the market and what's going on, in other companies when you interview with them, and it's a it's a way of also networking. So when you interview with hiring managers and they get to know you, later on when they have a role and if you perform there in that interview, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you. So be ready, before something happens is actually the key in this market. And knowing that your work is not bound to a company. You're taking your work to different companies' missions and vision and enabling part of their journey as a really amazing engineer. And, none of us have to be in a place forever. At least in tech, it's not the case. So Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I I think I think you also once mentioned sorry to sorry to jump in there. I think you also once mentioned around the interviewing process. You also just received feedback feedback from those people about how you present on a camera or your answers, or you get some valuable feedback from those interviews as well. Yeah. And be very transparent when you do those interviews. Like, I'm not actively looking, but this looks like a good opportunity. I wanna I wanna assess and learn more about this company. Why not doing an interview? And putting yourself in those situations more often makes you more comfortable. You'll be more confident. So if people wanna find me, I'm on LinkedIn, nazdaalum. Also, you can find all my handles on my website, nazda dev, and feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about anything I mentioned. Hopefully, we can have those books listed, John, somewhere, so people can find it on-site reference. Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say I'm gonna keep in contact with you just to see what books you're reading. Awesome, Naz. Well, yeah, I I really I personally found a lot of value from this conversation. There's a lot of things that, you mentioned that I just tend to forget over time, and so I definitely found some great value out of this conversation. Everyone, go follow her on LinkedIn. Pedro's battery is exhausted. My battery is exhausted, so my camera died, but I am here. Thank you, Nez. Thanks so much for your time. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me. It was great.","published",[135,146,155],{"people_id":136},{"id":137,"first_name":138,"last_name":139,"avatar":140,"bio":141,"links":142},"6057329f-2147-4f46-913f-d6b151dc1bf1","Pedro","Pizarro","7940df6a-db0a-4afe-81bb-a136ef93d229","Customer Success at Directus",[143],{"url":144,"service":145},"https://directus.io/team/pedro-pizarro","website",{"people_id":147},{"id":148,"first_name":149,"last_name":150,"avatar":151,"bio":141,"links":152},"9610ff1c-bcfd-4e59-9ab8-17ff5f567ccb","John","Daniels","5100c5aa-0455-48eb-bae3-4380bfd82ea2",[153],{"url":154,"service":145},"https://directus.io/team/john-daniels",{"people_id":156},{"id":157,"first_name":158,"last_name":159,"avatar":160,"bio":161,"links":162},"7a6f8889-ea45-482b-b7e0-291b159b19c2","Naz","Delam","2bde6d3b-cb34-4a54-b921-1c14e60a10a8","Naz is a highly-technical people-oriented leader who is heavily invested in mentorship, coaching and developing high performance teams. With over 10 years of experience in distributed systems software development, she has a passion for creating innovative and scalable solutions that enhance user experience and engagement.",[163,166],{"service":164,"url":165},"linkedin","https://www.linkedin.com/in/nazdelam/",{"service":167,"url":168},"MentorCruise","https://mentorcruise.com/mentor/NazDelam/",[],{"id":171,"number":172,"year":173,"episodes":174,"show":179},"814d854d-db03-4f92-99ba-d825df61fb36",2,"2024",[122,175,176,177,178],"e134329e-226e-4c35-a8a9-ba50fd7fdd62","26e762ac-1fcd-4f49-a364-b5b2e21b1ebe","b748cd39-d86b-44b2-a219-2d58a116a038","edffa3aa-a85e-4eca-bdc1-c05e1d8188e8",{"title":180,"tile":181},"Trace Talks","c3914dd2-0a22-4214-a2ac-8314b7a56c27",{"title":8,"meta_description":8},{"id":175,"slug":184,"season":171,"vimeo_id":185,"description":186,"tile":187,"length":188,"resources":8,"people":8,"episode_number":172,"published":189,"title":190,"video_transcript_html":191,"video_transcript_text":192,"content":8,"seo":193,"status":133,"episode_people":194,"recommendations":198},"david-simmer","948632658","In this episode of Trace Talks, David Simmer, Senior Software Engineer at Netflix, shares his unique journey into tech, starting from college AV/IT jobs to helping technical teams be more productive at Netflix. He talks about the importance of empathy in engineering, balancing hands-on coding with leadership, and using generative AI to boost efficiency. David also offers practical advice for aspiring leaders on seizing opportunities and promoting themselves. ","d5252dcc-cdb3-4caa-bc2d-7b32622b8900",48,"2024-06-06","David Simmer, Senior Software Engineer at Netflix","\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Remember the first time I, like, normalized a relational database. There was this clouds parting, feeling of of, like, I'm smart and I got this thing, and it feels so good to to see the elegance of it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Trace Talks. We've been graced with the presence of David today. John and Pedro here as well. Don't don't worry.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>We're still here for this conversation as well. But, David, I'd love for you to give yourself a brief introduction. Let the world know who you are. Just brief because we're gonna definitely dive into your background. So but let the world know who you are.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: You got it. I am employed right now as a senior engineer at Netflix. I'm in the consumer foundations team, but I spent, nearly the first 4 years there in the engineering. And outside that, I have a list of hobbies that's about 5 miles long.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Amazing. Yeah. We'll we'll definitely wanna get to that. But maybe at first, like, you know, what could you take us back to the the moment that kinda ignited your passion for, you know, blending technology and and design and, you know, kind of what got you into technology and into the space in the first place?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: For sure. For me, it was a student job in college. I got a job in the AV department, and it turned out to also be the IT department, which tells you something about when that was and how small things were at the time. And what got me into that was as a student at that college attempting to use the online scheduling tool that they'd built to just figure out what my class schedule is gonna be for for the term. And, the two things I noticed, most strongly about it were that it was ugly and hard to use.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I started asking, could someone change this? And then that question turned into, can I change this? And one of the great fortunate circumstances of my life was that the person in charge said, sure. Here's something you can change, and that was really the start. And and those two things, like, ugly and hard to use are really the the the converse, which is beautiful and nice to use is just continues to be a motivation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Amazing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I was I was gonna I was gonna make a joke that half the technology out there today still is ugly and hard to use. So you saw you saw that problem 20 something years ago, which is pretty awesome. Did you have any technical experience before that or maybe just tinkering on a a computer every now and then? Or or you just saw something ugly and you wanted to fix it?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Only a little bit. I had taken a rudimentary Photoshop course at Kinko's, before I owned a computer. And then, you know, just really basic stuff. I think a friend had had me over and been like, this is email, and here's how to get on AOL. But, other than that, a little bit of tinkering with, like, a hand me down DOS computer and a little bit of work on trail.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That was it. So it really was just the motivation of, I don't know how to do it, but I would like to learn, and I have some, you know, I have even though I don't know anything yet, I have some ideas about how that maybe this could be better, and that was the start.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Mhmm. Got it. Did have you since taken any sort of formal sort of design or UX UI, dove into that space?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Not not in the terms of, like, higher education or degree programs. So I I went to school originally to be a chiropractor. I wish I'd had better career advice or maybe had had changed tech earlier, but, I I have a, like, science and biology education, in undergrad, and all of my tech learning was, you know, the sir the term self taught is usually applied, but, this is something I mentioned a lot. I am taught by all the thousands of other people in this industry who love and are excited about what they do and who are delighted to write articles and make online courses and, produce demos showing how to do things with various technology. And so I have always loved, like, the design aspect.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>My mom, had an art background, and so I was homeschooled as a kid, and so she made sure to incorporate that. And I always I always really enjoyed that part. But the actual melding of design and tech, that was just this exciting new field that there was, you know, there were so many resources out there, to consume that that's really where that came about.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: What what was the because I also got into technology kind of probably around the same time frame, and I was in school for design. Sure. But I remember back then, there wasn't there wasn't as many forums or definitely wasn't as many videos or boot camps, all those stuff that's out there today. What did you rely on? You know, you you took on you were going to school for chiropractory and science.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I don't think that's even a word, chiropractory.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I like it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: But you were going to school but you're going to school for something different, and you took on this tech project. How did you learn to build I looked at your LinkedIn, and you built a CMS. You built everything that was needed. How did you find how how to do that back then? You know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Because I had people in person in school. I was going to school for that, but there wasn't forums. You know? Were you in communities in person asking these questions, or did you find some online forums to ask questions?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: It was there was a little bit. I remember, the, Jeffrey Zeltman's resource was a huge, or, like, his both his personal writing and then a list of part, which is a heavily CSS and, like, web standard sort of resource. That was one of my main go to's. And from there, that is really how I think I I you know, you could say I got my UI design education by their emphasis on not just, hey. This is beautiful and here are principal's design.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I mean, they mentioned those things, and, clearly, a a lot of the people in the community cared about that kind of stuff. But the, the larger point of so much of their writing and their tutorials and their excitement about, like, CSS becoming the main way to style things and and and the accessibility benefits of that versus the old clutches we were using to try to get things layout on screen that totally ignored the concerns of screen readers or assistive devices or anything else was this, it needs to be nice for humans to use. And it being beautiful is sometimes a companion, sometimes as a side effect to that, but that the primary thing is here's how to make it nice for him to use. And, also, by the way, here's how to have it kind of be more pleasant as a developer. You get that that mental satisfaction of having done this in a way that is elegant.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Again, that that elegance, you know, can turn into cleverness and be awful in a lot of ways, but that was always a side effect of doing building things in a way that are pleasant for humans to use.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. And that and that makes sense. I think that was that's sort of, like, the turning point for technology become more widely adopted, right, with the PC and, kind of personal computing. And still companies today are pushing that forward. Like, a company that could take something very technical and and and just make it user friendly and beautiful as I I don't know.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>The the example I always think of is, like, Square. Right? Like, there have been payment processors and credit card terminals and all these things, but they made a very simple, smart little thing that had a beautiful, simple design and Yeah. Captured a ton of market share by just doing that, like, leading with design.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. It felt like the future instead of this awkward thing that beeps ain't really at you. It was just nice and yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But there I I think all the time about, like, this sort of if you build it, they will come aspect of, like, you can kind of fall into that trap as a designer engineer where you just think, if I just build the beautiful thing, my marketing and business viability and all those other problems will solve themselves, which, of course, is your however, like, that do build something beautiful is still something worth hanging on.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. You've that's a good point to make. You know, you've you see a problem. You make it beautiful. You make it usable, and and people will gravitate towards it naturally.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Nice analogy, Pedro. I use Square myself. So it definitely I've I've found the the simplicity as well as ease of use, important. You've been on this long journey, not long, but you've been on this, wide ranging journey of different types of roles. I mean, even starting from chiropractor school to doing a c a CMS, and now you're at Netflix.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there's been a long journey along the way. What do you look for when you're looking for new projects or new roles, whether it's internal where you're at or, external companies? You know? What do you gravitate towards? Do you gravitate towards somewhere where you know you can fix problems, or do you gravitate towards somewhere where you know you can grow as an employee and as as a engineer designer?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, what I guess, what ranks importance for you when you're looking for new projects and roles?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Having, like, a baked in change of scenery or having having a change of scenery every so often has always been really important to me. I had, for a while, when I in one of my first roles, I was working for a small company. I probably stayed there longer than I should have. I had a bunch of friends, who were in agencies, and they had this sort of mental turnover of new clients, new projects that kept them interested in tackling new things. And I really started to desire that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And so that, for me, has been a motivator in finding new things. In fact, it was and being the reason I left that company and set out to freelance for a while. I, rely on money to pay for the things that I enjoy and and, need to live in life. So that's also a motivator. But, really, you know, that that aside, I think there is a blend of the 2.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So when I found the role I was hired into at Netflix when I read that job description, it described it used all of the words that I was looking for in terms of the the mission of the role and what I'd be working with and the variety that was baked into it. And so that was one of the exciting things. But I think what, also really drew me to that was that it was on a team of people who had a wide variety of skills, but where my skills weren't sort of fully representative, weren't already duplicated by somebody else. And so it was gonna be that chance to to bring the things I knew that I was good at, and to to add them there. I I didn't come to it that role with the feeling of, though, that, like, I got this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I'll show them, you know, what's going on. It was it was very much the opposite of, okay. This is the role that sounds awesome, but, of course, it's Netflix. And, you know, I'm not ready. Maybe they'll give me more time to prepare.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, of course, you know, the interview, you know, was like, can you come talk next week? And so I, you know, I I put a lot of effort into it, but it was that, that combination of this is, this is an amazing opportunity. It's exactly what I wanna do that I think really spurred, you know, really putting a lot of focus and effort into into that interview process there.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. And it and it seems like throughout your career, you've kind of transitioned between different roles and different industries. And now at Netflix, like, what what experience do you think was the most important or the most pivotal in shaping your approach to leadership that that you're sort of in it in that position now?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Sure. There's been a few things. I I think the the progression I've been I've made in my career, the opportunities that I've had have been, thanks to other people who kind of already understood it. One of the people I think of a lot is is a old boss of mine, Gunther, at that first company, who in our one on ones, instead of it being project recap time, he made sure that we were talking about what did I want to do in my career and what was I interested in long term beyond this company, beyond working for him. And then fast forward a few, and there was a moment where I was a more senior engineer on a relatively small team.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there was really a need, in order to make our junior engineers more effective. It wasn't going to be sort of teaching them in the sense of, hey. Here's how you do complicated things. They already had a lot of of skill at the technical things that they were taking on. Where, leadership was needed was for someone like me to do the glue work as it's, been described of, you know, a little bit of private project management, a lot of, taking care of some, you know, just sort of, like, unblocking chores for the team, being ahead of things like that, setting a a direction, you know, in cases where there was some ambiguity, providing, at least a decision and some reasoning, that we can all act on from there.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Yeah. I think it was seeing examples of other people and then just kind of realizing that there's this need and this is that by serving these other people on the team, that is actually a huge part of being a leader. And, and it was satisfying to start doing that. You know? In in isolation, the idea of of just, like, project management work sometimes feels boring or a chore or something you wanna procrastinate, on.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But when you are multiplying the happiness and and effectiveness of other people by doing that, then it becomes satisfying.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I that's a common thread that we've heard in a lot of these conversations that we've had is people who have worked their way up to some form of leadership. They've had good leaders, a lot of good leaders along the way. Some of them have had not great leaders, but, they all have this drive, and I I think it's ingrained in them by those good leaders. I think good leaders today have been trained by good leaders.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So do you enjoy leading more now, or do you enjoy getting your hands, you know, in and doing coding and designing still, a mixture of both? Some people prefer, you know, to train people and lead them like a true leader should, but some people still miss getting in their getting their hands in the dirt and and doing development work. So do you still get a mixture of those, and do you like that combination, or do you prefer 1 or the other?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I do still get a mixture. I do still love that mixture. I I often think about this because definitely the part of me, the engineer designer who loves building things, can very much get in the zone on a feature and be very happy, you know, towing away there and making it really awesome. And what I have to remind myself of is, like, I do have a desire to be a a good leader, a good engineering leader.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I often have this feeling that and this is probably something, you know, I was gonna say, real leaders also still still feel what that that feeling of, like, well, I'm I I don't have as much experience or as much to give there yet or, you know, I'm not I want to be, but I'm not yet. And I think that that awareness isn't all bad, but also that just saying, well, I'm not a leader yet isn't necessarily helpful because I am doing things that are, leading other folks. For instance, I'm I'm frequently mentoring a junior engineer on our team right now, who is awesome, but there's so much about being a software engineer that isn't necessarily computer science. And a lot of those things, like, we are working together on, and it doesn't feel like me wagging my finger at Hertz. We're talking about these things, and I am able to provide that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I love doing that. I think one of the things that's essential if you want to do that is to make sure that you have some time set aside to do that. If I get so attached to my feature work and building the thing and then realize, like, oh, it's 1 minute until my 1 on 1, with the person I'm mentoring. Okay. Well, I'll just ask her how things are going.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Then not only have I will I probably not do as, I probably won't be as good a resource for her, but also I've short changed myself on putting having some time to think ahead about what is important here, even even if there wasn't mentorship involved. For me to spend more time thinking ahead about the strategy for the project I'm working on, where I fit in my organization, how I see roles shifting, or the importance of teams, or how a strategy doc that I read might affect our team. Those are the things that leaders do. And if you begin spending the time doing the things that leaders do, either you'll find yourself being equipped to be a leader or you'll find yourself actually being in a leadership position, because you began acting that way. And that's that's really the the approach I've been trying to take.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, I I love getting to have a 1 on 1 with a director or, you know, like, several skip levels up. And and I'm always asking, like, how did you get here? But it's not just what did you do to get here. It's what circumstances got you here, and what do you spend your time doing. And these these roles that I, you know, possibly aspire to have one day, I'd like to be, at least able to think like a person who has that role now even when it's not my role yet.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Because without that reflection and beginning to get yourself in the mindset of that different role, it's extremely unlikely someone's gonna come along and be like, great work building that thing. You're gonna direct some people now. So that's that's the mindset I've tried to take.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's important also as you as people continue to to climb upward in their, you know, personal and professional trajectory to to remember because you had mentioned, feeling like you might not be qualified or feeling like you don't know everything to be in a position that you might be in. I think it's important for people to realize that nobody nobody knows everything, and what you just mentioned there still having time to reach out to your superiors to to ask those same type as a questions that you're passing that information down to people who you're training as well. I think it's important to remember growing as a human and growing as a employee and growing as just whatever you're in, whatever field you're in, it's a two way street. You know, you learn from those who have been there before, and that's kind of the reason of this podcast.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you you pass that information down to those that you're training. So do you these days, I assume it's probably a different answer than if you'd answered this 15 years ago. Do you find more satisfaction in a junior engineer that you're training, get unstuck from a bug that they've been trying to fix or get promoted, or do you find more enjoyment in fixing a a major bug yourself? I assume it's probably seeing those that you're training, you know, get to the next stage in their development.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Right. Like, it's it's tough to answer because it's still still joy in both, but I think you're right that it is the the latter because that's beyond that there's a a bigger effect that cascades far beyond that I, you know, unstuck a button that that wasn't working. Yeah. To see another person take off. And especially, like, there's there's so much joy.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, I I had mentioned that I had been in a in one career and then switched. And in in down moments, I have phrased it as I wasted those years of my life. That's not true, of course, because the person I am now is built out of those experiences. But one of the things that I get a lot of joy out and mention explicitly to younger engineers that I see, is that I'm so stoked that they are, like, getting started now. At work and especially for those who are really good at customer empathy and being curious and, thinking about strategic things and the health of the team and and sort of the work beyond just the the work itself that they are going to go so far.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And especially, you know, when I, like, I when I run into these sorts of folks at Netflix, I'm even more excited of like, for me, it feels like this amazing place to work where, I I finally got here, but after quite a long time in my career at, you know, you could say, like, smaller companies. I mean, smaller companies. It felt it felt like a a personally, like, such a huge achievement to make this this prospective company. And, I am so stoked to see young engineers getting jobs at, like, awesome companies and getting to start learning from amazing people way earlier than I did. It's it's so cool to see that, and I love being a part of that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. Stoked. I haven't heard that word in a while, so I I I appreciate the usage of that word. I mean, if you also, if you train people who are you, you know, who are your ment mentees, they'll do a lot of the work that then will possibly or potentially even enable you to then get more hands on in the code and and start fixing things because they're they're being smart enough and self sufficient enough to solve some problems that maybe a leader who hasn't trained their employees, would have to solve all of those problems. So I guess in a in a way, it probably helps you actually get back into coding and fixing bugs if you're training people to do some of that forward thinking leadership type stuff.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Totally. And, you know, there's so much that I still don't know or things where, you know, if I was just working by myself, I'd be looking up. Of course, the the great secret of of senior engineers is that we're still googling everything. And to do that in front of a junior engineer, I think, is a really helpful experience too to say I don't know. Or, you know, I've used this 4 times, or I configure this thing once a year when I set up a new whatever it is.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I don't remember what I was doing, so let's pull up in the documentation together and walk through it, and, you know, we'll we'll figure out how to do this again. Or that thing you're you're dealing with could be this, this, and this. It's not those. Okay. I don't have a ready answer off the top of my head, but you do a little more investigation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I will as well. Let's talk again in a couple hours and see if we've gotten anywhere. And that's that's what being an engineer is all the time, and, it is freeing to, be able to admit that. And, also, like, that would be a a chance for my own growth and my own either remembering how to do the technical task or, in the larger sense, just reminding myself that there's, there's I'm I there's so much I don't know. There's so much I'm gonna forget to remember and just it's I think it's so valuable for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet to get a glimpse into.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That's just always that's gonna be how it is throughout your career. You don't have to feel bad about not knowing right away because 20 years from now, you still won't know anything right away.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. The other thing that's interesting that you mentioned is empathy because it's it's something that we don't typically think about as a, you know, an engineering skill. Right? You think about the technical skills associated. But would you say that empathy and ABC's some of these other skills are, just as important or maybe more important as engineers are making their way, you know, up through the ranks or, you know, in different roles, within organizations?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Absolutely. Because there's so much, like, delightfulness and fun in embracing and understanding a complex thing. I remember the first time I, like, normalized a relational database. There was this clouds parting, feeling of of, like, I'm smart, and I got this thing, and it feels so good to to see the elegance of it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So there's plenty of pleasure there. But, I think once you get out of just building something for its own sake or learning a technology or or kind of seeing how clever you can get with your understanding of a knowledge of a language that you know well, Ultimately, you're going to be engineering things, designing things for someone else to use. You may be several layers removed from, let's say, a customer outside your company. In my case, you know, productivity engineering, your your customers are other engineers inside the company. And so still that, that aspect of empathy is necessary for a couple things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>1 is just that when you have gotten a request for something to be built, something to be changed, You could just take it exactly as it's written and knock out that thing and feel like you check the box and move the Jira store over to the done column. But to be good at what you do, the result should really not just be only the thing you were told to do. It should accomplish the purpose of what are we trying to do here. Are we trying to make this simpler for a user? Are we trying to actually make the experience a little higher friction to avoid someone mistakenly deleting something important?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's so many of those ways of thinking about things that that you're designing and engineering. Were to produce the highest quality version of the thing that you were assigned, you need to think through the eyes of the customer, probably the business, you know, understand all the needs that go into that. But then I think in addition to just producing the best version of the thing you could, I think empathy gives you curiosity and excitement and delight and the interest in taking on or suggesting changes that weren't already thought of, that weren't, identified. You can be the person who identifies those things. When you hear the frustration that someone has of, like, like, I have to click this 5 times, and then sometimes that this last step doesn't work.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>One way it's you could view that is, like, okay. Well, the problem is, like, the the bug is that it breaks at that 5th step depending on a certain scenario. So you could fix that, but, also, is there I have to click 5 things to do this at once? Like, that customer just gave you some very valuable insight into what they're thinking or kind of what they want or what annoys them. And if you're not attuned to catching those kind of things, you might not ever take the time to say, can we rethink how this interaction works so that it's one click?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's it's none. We, you know, make this whole thing more pleasant for the user. We don't just fix the bug that was described. We listened, and we might be able to invent something that really makes this whole thing more pleasant.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I think you're so right. Yeah. Like, that was\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I think you could have been a chiropractor. Someone says my back hurts, and we kinda find out why their back is actually hurting. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: I think you're so right, though. Sometimes we're so we're so involved, and we're so deep and close to something that we can't zoom out and see the bigger picture, and it does take empathy to do that. I mean, you know, John and I can speak for ourselves, but we're in conversations with folks all the time that are just like, oh, I need this software to check these four boxes. Like, well, hold on. Let's back up and, like, how does this impact you, the organization, the people you work with?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, what's the actual business outcome, the personal outcome? And I think, engineers thinking that way is is definitely an interesting way to look at it because you can you can actually solve the core problem. Sometimes they're just like, oh, it doesn't like you said, it doesn't work at the 5th step. Well, maybe the whole process is the problem, and it could be reinvented. So that's that's really interesting.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. So what you know, all of working your way up to leadership isn't, roses and daisies. So what kind of, you know, part of this podcast is kind of passing on this advice and and your experiences to people who are listening. So what have been some of the struggles that you you faced? Is it, you know, having to deal with meetings, leadership meetings?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I I assume those are I don't know how they are at Netflix, but in in some places, they're not fun. They're just kind of monotonous. But what have been some of the struggles that you've faced as you've worked your way up and and some things that you would say, hey, 15 year younger myself, be aware of this and or do this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. The first things come to mind are kind of personal habits of, like, giving myself a little too much room to procrastinate, not being as frequent a communicator, an aversion to maintenance. Like, I I was thinking about this recently that I think I have this inbuilt feeling that whenever I, like, buy a thing, it should just continue working forever. And, of course, you have to, like, change oil and dust and clean and, you know, all those may maintenance things. And, I think in similar ways, times where I've done you know, I I was given a chance to lead a thing and I didn't do a great job at it, Oftentimes came down to that of a lack of personal organization.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, I didn't kind of put in some important work ahead of time, and so I had to scramble to get a result at the end. And sometimes that works out, and sometimes it doesn't. And, in making yourself, you know, not making yourself visible enough or not being a communicator, not chiming in on meetings, I think there's a lot of a lot of times where had I been more aware that just that involvement, which takes work and energy to get yourself to, like, be there with your camera on and and, you know, to really to really be involved and not just, I saw a cartoon someone was like, how to how to, you know, make it appear that you've been contributing me to a meeting is to just say, thanks, everybody, at the end when you haven't said anything to the meeting. I mean, I so I've done that for a while, but I think I think avoiding those habits that require less energy, less investment, and just kind of, working on that is something I wish I'd started earlier. I heard I heard someone say that they've, it was another engineer at Netflix, It's Molly Stroup.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>She said, I realized that I wouldn't be an effective leader until I was an effective leader from in my own life, and that's really stuck with me of you just your personal inclination to wash the dishes and wipe down the kitchen counter when you'd rather just leave it for somebody else or not do it at all. I think that's that is a great little microcosm of, the kind of things you need to be, just willing to put the time into if you want to be a leader. And, you know, I mentioned I I mentioned, like, being on camera is an offhand thing, and there's plenty of reasons why in meetings. Like, I I'm glad our shift towards remote work and getting used to doing things over Zoom and the reasons why someone might be on camera. I'm not trying to denigrate any of those.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But, in the the sort of being if if leadership is something you want to grow into, that putting this extra work in to provide energy and provide involvement to other people is really part of it. Just if you are there with contributions and and the feeling of, like, this is useful to be here and I am bringing my bringing my whole self here. Other people pick up on that, and that I think is is, super valuable. So I wish I'd I wish I'd focused on being that kind of person sooner.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me, kind of on the opposite spectrum. I I used to work at Dell, and there's a guy who had been in the same position for, I don't know, 15 years, 20 years, something like that. And I asked him one day.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>His name is Joe. I'll I'll call out someone's name too, Joe O'Brien. I was like, Joe, you've don't you ever wanna, you know, climb up the ranks and be a manager or be a regional manager? He's and he said something he said, I'm really happy with my life, and I really like where I'm at, and so I'm comfortable here. And so I think on the other end of the spectrum, it's and this applies to leadership as well.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You kinda have to understand what your personal goals are. Don't feel like you have to climb to leadership because someone else thinks you should climb to leadership. But if it's something that you feel like you want to do, then start to put those habits into your life. And so that that's some really good advice that you actually just gave there, which is be a proponent for yourself. Even if you're not ready, start putting yourself in that position to have those opportunities because you never know when you're gonna learn something, just because you're present.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that's good advice. So, yeah, you know, what speaking of tech, you've seen, you know, both you and I came sounds like we came into tech around the same time frame. So there's been a lot that's changed over, you know, 15, 20 years, and a lot has changed in the last year or 2. You know, you start talking about AI and all that kind of stuff. So what's your vision for the future?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Are you always one of those on the forefront of technology? I think Pedro bought the r one Rabbit, which is a brand new AI device. But do you always try and embrace new technology? Do you kind of skirt the outsides to see what other people are doing with it?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I think I'm a little more of a scooter. I I like keeping up with things, and I always have the the thought whenever I've seen I think, like, we all have maybe a a character, like, you know, the sort of person to which someone would say, okay, boomer. You know? The the idea of someone who's so fixed in their ways, they that all modern music is shit and, kids these days and nobody wants to work and all those kind of things you hear. Like, how did you become that kind of person?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, we've had that kind of person throughout every generation, and I don't wanna be that person. And so, similarly, in technology, you know, I have my formative era of what I got good at and what I was excited about, and there are certain branches off of those things that I spent most of my time on that I continue to be excited about innovations in. And, of course, no one has time to sort of be fully on top of every new innovation that's out there. So I often have a feeling that I should be more on top of things, but also, like, keeping an openness and and an excitement about how other people are using things, I think, is is still important to have. I could do more of it, but at least, I think I'm maintaining the idea of of openness.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I I am definitely surrounded by people who do a great job of more quickly embracing and tinkering with something new. And so, you know, I'm sort of maybe getting a secondhand keeping up by by keeping up with them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Are there are are there any of these technologies that you're you've seen make an impact at, you know, at Netflix or any other companies recently?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I think the generative AI one is interesting for, like, specifically in writing code. I I gave a talk about this, a little over a year ago in which I expressed a lot of, if not skepticism, at least in encouraging people to pump their brakes on embracing it too quickly. Because, for instance, with writing code, you can only trust the output of an LLM when you can actually verify it. And so paradoxically, in order to make use of it, you have to kind of be able to do it on your own.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But, also, there are time savings to be had. There are so many sort of, like, we still bump into boilerplate all the time, and to have something where you can, automate for yourself the repetitive things, you know, the the why should I be typing the same syntax over and over again perhaps when there's some way I can automate the snippet or the generation of it or say, hey. Write me a unit test for this thing. And to incorporate some of that without fully relying on it, I think, is something that I need to get better at and is a good skill to have. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That one is, I think, like, dominating the airways right now, and I think that the people who will make the most of it, maintain sort of, like, a little bit of a healthy distance. Like, they use it for what it is, but don't see it as, true artificial intelligence yet or or replacing their job. I think the other thing that, that I have isn't necessarily the future, maybe it's sort of standard now, but the idea of design tools that have less of a barrier to entry. So I am a big Figma user. Before that, it was InVision and Sketch and and those.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And and, of course, like, I grew up with Photoshop and Adobe Suite. And, you know, spending every day in Photoshop, I got used to it and I can move around quickly, but it's difficult to learn that kind of thing. And the way design tools have shifted to you don't need to have spent 20 hours in this to learn how to do it. Everyone can participate in from lo fi to hi fi, getting their ideas in a visual form and building from there. I think that in all its various forms has been incredibly valuable, and I am glad to see that continuing to happen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's so much engineering and design work within companies, even Netflix, where a lo fi, low code kind of way to do something is the really smart way to do it. And, I think that the more people who are encouraged to think of themselves as doing design work, if not necessarily being designers, is a really healthy thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I can tell you from firsthand experience, like, I used Sketch actually to design my first startups, like MVP app. Right? And I just kinda wireframe the whole thing out and gave it to the engineers, and we're like, make this happen. This looks good.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there were some elements of that design, like, found in some kinda, you know, kit I downloaded, like, some UI elements that I had pieced together and changed around a little bit. But you're right. It was and that allowed us to launch our app in this, like, you know, it wasn't completely no code, but, definitely low code in in the sense of me designing the front end and just handing it to the engineers to to make happen. So it definitely accelerated our development and put a product out faster. So, yeah, I\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: think\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: it's super important.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: And there's still a need for pros who are great at design, and and that won't go away. But the, lowering the barrier to entry, I think, has been amazing. Tools that continue to lower the barrier to entry to producing something, to getting the satisfaction of the thing I built I can see on screen, is great.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a great point. I also learned Photoshop and Illustrator, and I can still use those today. But for example, I'm actually I'm not gonna show it off in camera, but I'm wearing a shirt that I used AI to create 2 images, front and back. Took me 30 seconds when that would have taken me an illustrator, you know, 40 minutes, if if not more.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But like you said, when you talk about programming and using AI for programming, you still have to know what you're doing because AI is not even anywhere to the point where people claim it can be. So it's smart to have that sort of healthy skepticism both with that type of a trend like AI, but I think in general, I think skirting the out or or, you know, skirting the edges of anything that you're approaching, whether you're thinking about being a leader or you're thinking about doing x or y. You know? Do your research, understand the pros and cons of anything, and find where it can help, lower the barrier. I think that was another great phrase that you used because, you know, I can have AI draft the first draft, and then I go and clean it up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Because robots, I probably shouldn't say this on recording, but robots will never be as great as humans. So, it's but it's yeah. I think it's that was a great term that you used, lowering the barrier.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. So so, you know, you've definitely gone on a a long journey. I think there's been some great advice. I think having, having empathy and, you know, leading on a two way road has been some great advice. So, you know, I guess for those who are listening who either don't know if they wanna be a leader yet or those who do know that they wanna keep climbing the ranks, what's some advice you gave advice for your younger self, but what would be some advice just in general that you would give to people who are out there looking to climb the ranks?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I would say raise your hand, when opportunities arise for anything. Volunteer to help set up your next team on-site. There's an extra project that would, you know, clean up some old data, you know, not to not to take on, so much work that you burn out or that you're sacrificing other parts of your life. But within, your ability to do so, you know, say yes to to things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Those, those opportunities that you get, are not just about the task that you might do. They are about your they provide you this chance to work with other people that you might not have already, to be seen by other people you might not have already. And one of the things that really, some of my close friends had to drill into me, at some point in my career was promote yourself of of, like, don't be so humble and self aware that you don't ever say something nice about the things you're proud of, or that you, hesitate to, say, yes. I can take care of that. And I think even beyond that, you know, my wife, will frequently point out, what she used phrases, my white boy confidence, which is just like, oh, sure.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Why not? I could do it. Like, you might have seen the thing recently where, it was, like, 11% of all men surveyed believed that they could totally land a passenger airplane if they had to. You know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: They could.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: They probably could. Right. Or, like, yeah. I could score a point against Serena Williams. So there's that there's overconfidence, and then I think there's a healthy amount of just a little bit more confidence than you actually maybe know you can back up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And so that, for me, has been helpful of I I used the example planning on-site. That's something I'm involved in right now. And am I do I have a track record of doing that before or having to do that? Like, little aspects maybe, not not to the size of of the one that I'm helping with right now. But I raised my hand and said yes, because this is gonna give me a chance to collaborate with some other people on bringing this thing together.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It is fun to do some of this work to ensure that on those days, it is a valuable, engaging, worthwhile, fun experience for everybody. And even selfishly as part of my career, now there are more people, assuming I do a good job with this, who have seen me do a good job at this and have, gotten to see that I care and and putting some energy and bringing some ideas towards this thing. And whenever you have a chance to do that, that is, that's part of it. Being offered a leadership position, which is really what a lot of, you know, a lot of our our fortunes in life are dependent on what we do, and a lot of them are depending are dependent on what other people decide to do. And especially when we're talking about careers and jobs, almost always, it is someone else who is going to make a decision to hire you, to promote you, and they have to base that on something.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And when you have been seen to be an empathetic, you know, knowledgeable, skilled person in all these various ways that go beyond just the code that you're writing, the systems that you can understand and talk about. All of those feed into the possibility of you getting to whatever level it is that you want to advance to.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. That's that's great advice. So speaking about promoting yourself, where else, you know, can the listeners go find you after this? You know, they've seen this video. They've heard this conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Where else can they find your you know, follow your journey and, and learn more about you? This is a great time to mention that the\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: that this is something I don't do a good job at yet. But so I have a I have a website, which as many of us, gets updated whenever I'm looking for a new job. And I've had a few updates since then. But, otherwise, I am not widely active online right now. Most of my time right now is spent, on my job, spending time with my wife and my dogs.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I'm remodeling my office. So it's in sort of a lull of of personal promotion and and visibility. But there there are a few things. I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me at Simmer there.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And so if you're interested in reaching out or talking more, you can send me a message there. Otherwise, my website, Simmer dot 0 0. When I first came across that domain extension, it was like, sweet. My portfolio site, with that, people are gonna have to say, oh.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Of course,\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: OO probably means out of office, which is also you know? Yeah. Yeah. So\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: That's where you can find your nature photography.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: You're out of options.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: O o o. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I've got some of my past work there. And when I get to writing, which has been a goal of mine for a while, then it'll start popping up there. Amazing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, yeah, I I think, as I as I say with most of our guests, I definitely learned a lot. I think it's always it's always cool to hear the common threads that everybody has, but also each individual story. Everyone has their own individual story. So it's it's definitely it was really cool to hear your journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What I would say is for everyone listening, start go and follow him so that he has to start writing some more, because there were some great there were some great advice. Absolutely. And, I I you know, I I always listen to these podcasts back, but I might actually listen back and take some actual notes because it was it was a good podcast. But we greatly appreciate your time. Start your writing up again so when people follow you, they can actually follow current events.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Update your out of office website, and thank you so much for your time. Any any parting words that you wanna say? Any last pieces of advice?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I I really appreciate you 2 having me on here, and I think just say yes to things when you when you have the ability is is my advice. That's that's why I'm literally here talking to you as well right now. So yeah. Yeah. Say yes.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Have empathy.\u003C/p>","Remember the first time I, like, normalized a relational database. There was this clouds parting, feeling of of, like, I'm smart and I got this thing, and it feels so good to to see the elegance of it. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Trace Talks. We've been graced with the presence of David today. John and Pedro here as well. Don't don't worry. We're still here for this conversation as well. But, David, I'd love for you to give yourself a brief introduction. Let the world know who you are. Just brief because we're gonna definitely dive into your background. So but let the world know who you are. You got it. I am employed right now as a senior engineer at Netflix. I'm in the consumer foundations team, but I spent, nearly the first 4 years there in the engineering. And outside that, I have a list of hobbies that's about 5 miles long. Amazing. Yeah. We'll we'll definitely wanna get to that. But maybe at first, like, you know, what could you take us back to the the moment that kinda ignited your passion for, you know, blending technology and and design and, you know, kind of what got you into technology and into the space in the first place? For sure. For me, it was a student job in college. I got a job in the AV department, and it turned out to also be the IT department, which tells you something about when that was and how small things were at the time. And what got me into that was as a student at that college attempting to use the online scheduling tool that they'd built to just figure out what my class schedule is gonna be for for the term. And, the two things I noticed, most strongly about it were that it was ugly and hard to use. And I started asking, could someone change this? And then that question turned into, can I change this? And one of the great fortunate circumstances of my life was that the person in charge said, sure. Here's something you can change, and that was really the start. And and those two things, like, ugly and hard to use are really the the the converse, which is beautiful and nice to use is just continues to be a motivation. Amazing. Yeah. I was I was gonna I was gonna make a joke that half the technology out there today still is ugly and hard to use. So you saw you saw that problem 20 something years ago, which is pretty awesome. Did you have any technical experience before that or maybe just tinkering on a a computer every now and then? Or or you just saw something ugly and you wanted to fix it? Only a little bit. I had taken a rudimentary Photoshop course at Kinko's, before I owned a computer. And then, you know, just really basic stuff. I think a friend had had me over and been like, this is email, and here's how to get on AOL. But, other than that, a little bit of tinkering with, like, a hand me down DOS computer and a little bit of work on trail. That was it. So it really was just the motivation of, I don't know how to do it, but I would like to learn, and I have some, you know, I have even though I don't know anything yet, I have some ideas about how that maybe this could be better, and that was the start. Mhmm. Got it. Did have you since taken any sort of formal sort of design or UX UI, dove into that space? Not not in the terms of, like, higher education or degree programs. So I I went to school originally to be a chiropractor. I wish I'd had better career advice or maybe had had changed tech earlier, but, I I have a, like, science and biology education, in undergrad, and all of my tech learning was, you know, the sir the term self taught is usually applied, but, this is something I mentioned a lot. I am taught by all the thousands of other people in this industry who love and are excited about what they do and who are delighted to write articles and make online courses and, produce demos showing how to do things with various technology. And so I have always loved, like, the design aspect. My mom, had an art background, and so I was homeschooled as a kid, and so she made sure to incorporate that. And I always I always really enjoyed that part. But the actual melding of design and tech, that was just this exciting new field that there was, you know, there were so many resources out there, to consume that that's really where that came about. What what was the because I also got into technology kind of probably around the same time frame, and I was in school for design. Sure. But I remember back then, there wasn't there wasn't as many forums or definitely wasn't as many videos or boot camps, all those stuff that's out there today. What did you rely on? You know, you you took on you were going to school for chiropractory and science. I don't think that's even a word, chiropractory. I like it. But you were going to school but you're going to school for something different, and you took on this tech project. How did you learn to build I looked at your LinkedIn, and you built a CMS. You built everything that was needed. How did you find how how to do that back then? You know? Because I had people in person in school. I was going to school for that, but there wasn't forums. You know? Were you in communities in person asking these questions, or did you find some online forums to ask questions? It was there was a little bit. I remember, the, Jeffrey Zeltman's resource was a huge, or, like, his both his personal writing and then a list of part, which is a heavily CSS and, like, web standard sort of resource. That was one of my main go to's. And from there, that is really how I think I I you know, you could say I got my UI design education by their emphasis on not just, hey. This is beautiful and here are principal's design. I mean, they mentioned those things, and, clearly, a a lot of the people in the community cared about that kind of stuff. But the, the larger point of so much of their writing and their tutorials and their excitement about, like, CSS becoming the main way to style things and and and the accessibility benefits of that versus the old clutches we were using to try to get things layout on screen that totally ignored the concerns of screen readers or assistive devices or anything else was this, it needs to be nice for humans to use. And it being beautiful is sometimes a companion, sometimes as a side effect to that, but that the primary thing is here's how to make it nice for him to use. And, also, by the way, here's how to have it kind of be more pleasant as a developer. You get that that mental satisfaction of having done this in a way that is elegant. Again, that that elegance, you know, can turn into cleverness and be awful in a lot of ways, but that was always a side effect of doing building things in a way that are pleasant for humans to use. Yeah. And that and that makes sense. I think that was that's sort of, like, the turning point for technology become more widely adopted, right, with the PC and, kind of personal computing. And still companies today are pushing that forward. Like, a company that could take something very technical and and and just make it user friendly and beautiful as I I don't know. The the example I always think of is, like, Square. Right? Like, there have been payment processors and credit card terminals and all these things, but they made a very simple, smart little thing that had a beautiful, simple design and Yeah. Captured a ton of market share by just doing that, like, leading with design. Yeah. It felt like the future instead of this awkward thing that beeps ain't really at you. It was just nice and yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. But there I I think all the time about, like, this sort of if you build it, they will come aspect of, like, you can kind of fall into that trap as a designer engineer where you just think, if I just build the beautiful thing, my marketing and business viability and all those other problems will solve themselves, which, of course, is your however, like, that do build something beautiful is still something worth hanging on. Yeah. You've that's a good point to make. You know, you've you see a problem. You make it beautiful. You make it usable, and and people will gravitate towards it naturally. Nice analogy, Pedro. I use Square myself. So it definitely I've I've found the the simplicity as well as ease of use, important. You've been on this long journey, not long, but you've been on this, wide ranging journey of different types of roles. I mean, even starting from chiropractor school to doing a c a CMS, and now you're at Netflix. And there's been a long journey along the way. What do you look for when you're looking for new projects or new roles, whether it's internal where you're at or, external companies? You know? What do you gravitate towards? Do you gravitate towards somewhere where you know you can fix problems, or do you gravitate towards somewhere where you know you can grow as an employee and as as a engineer designer? You know, what I guess, what ranks importance for you when you're looking for new projects and roles? Having, like, a baked in change of scenery or having having a change of scenery every so often has always been really important to me. I had, for a while, when I in one of my first roles, I was working for a small company. I probably stayed there longer than I should have. I had a bunch of friends, who were in agencies, and they had this sort of mental turnover of new clients, new projects that kept them interested in tackling new things. And I really started to desire that. And so that, for me, has been a motivator in finding new things. In fact, it was and being the reason I left that company and set out to freelance for a while. I, rely on money to pay for the things that I enjoy and and, need to live in life. So that's also a motivator. But, really, you know, that that aside, I think there is a blend of the 2. So when I found the role I was hired into at Netflix when I read that job description, it described it used all of the words that I was looking for in terms of the the mission of the role and what I'd be working with and the variety that was baked into it. And so that was one of the exciting things. But I think what, also really drew me to that was that it was on a team of people who had a wide variety of skills, but where my skills weren't sort of fully representative, weren't already duplicated by somebody else. And so it was gonna be that chance to to bring the things I knew that I was good at, and to to add them there. I I didn't come to it that role with the feeling of, though, that, like, I got this. I'll show them, you know, what's going on. It was it was very much the opposite of, okay. This is the role that sounds awesome, but, of course, it's Netflix. And, you know, I'm not ready. Maybe they'll give me more time to prepare. And, of course, you know, the interview, you know, was like, can you come talk next week? And so I, you know, I I put a lot of effort into it, but it was that, that combination of this is, this is an amazing opportunity. It's exactly what I wanna do that I think really spurred, you know, really putting a lot of focus and effort into into that interview process there. Yeah. And it and it seems like throughout your career, you've kind of transitioned between different roles and different industries. And now at Netflix, like, what what experience do you think was the most important or the most pivotal in shaping your approach to leadership that that you're sort of in it in that position now? Sure. There's been a few things. I I think the the progression I've been I've made in my career, the opportunities that I've had have been, thanks to other people who kind of already understood it. One of the people I think of a lot is is a old boss of mine, Gunther, at that first company, who in our one on ones, instead of it being project recap time, he made sure that we were talking about what did I want to do in my career and what was I interested in long term beyond this company, beyond working for him. And then fast forward a few, and there was a moment where I was a more senior engineer on a relatively small team. And there was really a need, in order to make our junior engineers more effective. It wasn't going to be sort of teaching them in the sense of, hey. Here's how you do complicated things. They already had a lot of of skill at the technical things that they were taking on. Where, leadership was needed was for someone like me to do the glue work as it's, been described of, you know, a little bit of private project management, a lot of, taking care of some, you know, just sort of, like, unblocking chores for the team, being ahead of things like that, setting a a direction, you know, in cases where there was some ambiguity, providing, at least a decision and some reasoning, that we can all act on from there. Yeah. I think it was seeing examples of other people and then just kind of realizing that there's this need and this is that by serving these other people on the team, that is actually a huge part of being a leader. And, and it was satisfying to start doing that. You know? In in isolation, the idea of of just, like, project management work sometimes feels boring or a chore or something you wanna procrastinate, on. But when you are multiplying the happiness and and effectiveness of other people by doing that, then it becomes satisfying. Yeah. I that's a common thread that we've heard in a lot of these conversations that we've had is people who have worked their way up to some form of leadership. They've had good leaders, a lot of good leaders along the way. Some of them have had not great leaders, but, they all have this drive, and I I think it's ingrained in them by those good leaders. I think good leaders today have been trained by good leaders. So do you enjoy leading more now, or do you enjoy getting your hands, you know, in and doing coding and designing still, a mixture of both? Some people prefer, you know, to train people and lead them like a true leader should, but some people still miss getting in their getting their hands in the dirt and and doing development work. So do you still get a mixture of those, and do you like that combination, or do you prefer 1 or the other? Yeah. I do still get a mixture. I do still love that mixture. I I often think about this because definitely the part of me, the engineer designer who loves building things, can very much get in the zone on a feature and be very happy, you know, towing away there and making it really awesome. And what I have to remind myself of is, like, I do have a desire to be a a good leader, a good engineering leader. And I often have this feeling that and this is probably something, you know, I was gonna say, real leaders also still still feel what that that feeling of, like, well, I'm I I don't have as much experience or as much to give there yet or, you know, I'm not I want to be, but I'm not yet. And I think that that awareness isn't all bad, but also that just saying, well, I'm not a leader yet isn't necessarily helpful because I am doing things that are, leading other folks. For instance, I'm I'm frequently mentoring a junior engineer on our team right now, who is awesome, but there's so much about being a software engineer that isn't necessarily computer science. And a lot of those things, like, we are working together on, and it doesn't feel like me wagging my finger at Hertz. We're talking about these things, and I am able to provide that. And I love doing that. I think one of the things that's essential if you want to do that is to make sure that you have some time set aside to do that. If I get so attached to my feature work and building the thing and then realize, like, oh, it's 1 minute until my 1 on 1, with the person I'm mentoring. Okay. Well, I'll just ask her how things are going. Then not only have I will I probably not do as, I probably won't be as good a resource for her, but also I've short changed myself on putting having some time to think ahead about what is important here, even even if there wasn't mentorship involved. For me to spend more time thinking ahead about the strategy for the project I'm working on, where I fit in my organization, how I see roles shifting, or the importance of teams, or how a strategy doc that I read might affect our team. Those are the things that leaders do. And if you begin spending the time doing the things that leaders do, either you'll find yourself being equipped to be a leader or you'll find yourself actually being in a leadership position, because you began acting that way. And that's that's really the the approach I've been trying to take. You know, I I love getting to have a 1 on 1 with a director or, you know, like, several skip levels up. And and I'm always asking, like, how did you get here? But it's not just what did you do to get here. It's what circumstances got you here, and what do you spend your time doing. And these these roles that I, you know, possibly aspire to have one day, I'd like to be, at least able to think like a person who has that role now even when it's not my role yet. Because without that reflection and beginning to get yourself in the mindset of that different role, it's extremely unlikely someone's gonna come along and be like, great work building that thing. You're gonna direct some people now. So that's that's the mindset I've tried to take. Yeah. I think it's important also as you as people continue to to climb upward in their, you know, personal and professional trajectory to to remember because you had mentioned, feeling like you might not be qualified or feeling like you don't know everything to be in a position that you might be in. I think it's important for people to realize that nobody nobody knows everything, and what you just mentioned there still having time to reach out to your superiors to to ask those same type as a questions that you're passing that information down to people who you're training as well. I think it's important to remember growing as a human and growing as a employee and growing as just whatever you're in, whatever field you're in, it's a two way street. You know, you learn from those who have been there before, and that's kind of the reason of this podcast. And then you you pass that information down to those that you're training. So do you these days, I assume it's probably a different answer than if you'd answered this 15 years ago. Do you find more satisfaction in a junior engineer that you're training, get unstuck from a bug that they've been trying to fix or get promoted, or do you find more enjoyment in fixing a a major bug yourself? I assume it's probably seeing those that you're training, you know, get to the next stage in their development. Right. Like, it's it's tough to answer because it's still still joy in both, but I think you're right that it is the the latter because that's beyond that there's a a bigger effect that cascades far beyond that I, you know, unstuck a button that that wasn't working. Yeah. To see another person take off. And especially, like, there's there's so much joy. You know, I I had mentioned that I had been in a in one career and then switched. And in in down moments, I have phrased it as I wasted those years of my life. That's not true, of course, because the person I am now is built out of those experiences. But one of the things that I get a lot of joy out and mention explicitly to younger engineers that I see, is that I'm so stoked that they are, like, getting started now. At work and especially for those who are really good at customer empathy and being curious and, thinking about strategic things and the health of the team and and sort of the work beyond just the the work itself that they are going to go so far. And especially, you know, when I, like, I when I run into these sorts of folks at Netflix, I'm even more excited of like, for me, it feels like this amazing place to work where, I I finally got here, but after quite a long time in my career at, you know, you could say, like, smaller companies. I mean, smaller companies. It felt it felt like a a personally, like, such a huge achievement to make this this prospective company. And, I am so stoked to see young engineers getting jobs at, like, awesome companies and getting to start learning from amazing people way earlier than I did. It's it's so cool to see that, and I love being a part of that. Yeah. Stoked. I haven't heard that word in a while, so I I I appreciate the usage of that word. I mean, if you also, if you train people who are you, you know, who are your ment mentees, they'll do a lot of the work that then will possibly or potentially even enable you to then get more hands on in the code and and start fixing things because they're they're being smart enough and self sufficient enough to solve some problems that maybe a leader who hasn't trained their employees, would have to solve all of those problems. So I guess in a in a way, it probably helps you actually get back into coding and fixing bugs if you're training people to do some of that forward thinking leadership type stuff. Totally. And, you know, there's so much that I still don't know or things where, you know, if I was just working by myself, I'd be looking up. Of course, the the great secret of of senior engineers is that we're still googling everything. And to do that in front of a junior engineer, I think, is a really helpful experience too to say I don't know. Or, you know, I've used this 4 times, or I configure this thing once a year when I set up a new whatever it is. And I don't remember what I was doing, so let's pull up in the documentation together and walk through it, and, you know, we'll we'll figure out how to do this again. Or that thing you're you're dealing with could be this, this, and this. It's not those. Okay. I don't have a ready answer off the top of my head, but you do a little more investigation. I will as well. Let's talk again in a couple hours and see if we've gotten anywhere. And that's that's what being an engineer is all the time, and, it is freeing to, be able to admit that. And, also, like, that would be a a chance for my own growth and my own either remembering how to do the technical task or, in the larger sense, just reminding myself that there's, there's I'm I there's so much I don't know. There's so much I'm gonna forget to remember and just it's I think it's so valuable for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet to get a glimpse into. That's just always that's gonna be how it is throughout your career. You don't have to feel bad about not knowing right away because 20 years from now, you still won't know anything right away. Yeah. The other thing that's interesting that you mentioned is empathy because it's it's something that we don't typically think about as a, you know, an engineering skill. Right? You think about the technical skills associated. But would you say that empathy and ABC's some of these other skills are, just as important or maybe more important as engineers are making their way, you know, up through the ranks or, you know, in different roles, within organizations? Yeah. Absolutely. Because there's so much, like, delightfulness and fun in embracing and understanding a complex thing. I remember the first time I, like, normalized a relational database. There was this clouds parting, feeling of of, like, I'm smart, and I got this thing, and it feels so good to to see the elegance of it. So there's plenty of pleasure there. But, I think once you get out of just building something for its own sake or learning a technology or or kind of seeing how clever you can get with your understanding of a knowledge of a language that you know well, Ultimately, you're going to be engineering things, designing things for someone else to use. You may be several layers removed from, let's say, a customer outside your company. In my case, you know, productivity engineering, your your customers are other engineers inside the company. And so still that, that aspect of empathy is necessary for a couple things. 1 is just that when you have gotten a request for something to be built, something to be changed, You could just take it exactly as it's written and knock out that thing and feel like you check the box and move the Jira store over to the done column. But to be good at what you do, the result should really not just be only the thing you were told to do. It should accomplish the purpose of what are we trying to do here. Are we trying to make this simpler for a user? Are we trying to actually make the experience a little higher friction to avoid someone mistakenly deleting something important? There's so many of those ways of thinking about things that that you're designing and engineering. Were to produce the highest quality version of the thing that you were assigned, you need to think through the eyes of the customer, probably the business, you know, understand all the needs that go into that. But then I think in addition to just producing the best version of the thing you could, I think empathy gives you curiosity and excitement and delight and the interest in taking on or suggesting changes that weren't already thought of, that weren't, identified. You can be the person who identifies those things. When you hear the frustration that someone has of, like, like, I have to click this 5 times, and then sometimes that this last step doesn't work. One way it's you could view that is, like, okay. Well, the problem is, like, the the bug is that it breaks at that 5th step depending on a certain scenario. So you could fix that, but, also, is there I have to click 5 things to do this at once? Like, that customer just gave you some very valuable insight into what they're thinking or kind of what they want or what annoys them. And if you're not attuned to catching those kind of things, you might not ever take the time to say, can we rethink how this interaction works so that it's one click? It's it's none. We, you know, make this whole thing more pleasant for the user. We don't just fix the bug that was described. We listened, and we might be able to invent something that really makes this whole thing more pleasant. Yeah. I think I think you're so right. Yeah. Like, that was I think you could have been a chiropractor. Someone says my back hurts, and we kinda find out why their back is actually hurting. Yeah. I think you're so right, though. Sometimes we're so we're so involved, and we're so deep and close to something that we can't zoom out and see the bigger picture, and it does take empathy to do that. I mean, you know, John and I can speak for ourselves, but we're in conversations with folks all the time that are just like, oh, I need this software to check these four boxes. Like, well, hold on. Let's back up and, like, how does this impact you, the organization, the people you work with? Like, what's the actual business outcome, the personal outcome? And I think, engineers thinking that way is is definitely an interesting way to look at it because you can you can actually solve the core problem. Sometimes they're just like, oh, it doesn't like you said, it doesn't work at the 5th step. Well, maybe the whole process is the problem, and it could be reinvented. So that's that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So what you know, all of working your way up to leadership isn't, roses and daisies. So what kind of, you know, part of this podcast is kind of passing on this advice and and your experiences to people who are listening. So what have been some of the struggles that you you faced? Is it, you know, having to deal with meetings, leadership meetings? I I assume those are I don't know how they are at Netflix, but in in some places, they're not fun. They're just kind of monotonous. But what have been some of the struggles that you've faced as you've worked your way up and and some things that you would say, hey, 15 year younger myself, be aware of this and or do this. Yeah. The first things come to mind are kind of personal habits of, like, giving myself a little too much room to procrastinate, not being as frequent a communicator, an aversion to maintenance. Like, I I was thinking about this recently that I think I have this inbuilt feeling that whenever I, like, buy a thing, it should just continue working forever. And, of course, you have to, like, change oil and dust and clean and, you know, all those may maintenance things. And, I think in similar ways, times where I've done you know, I I was given a chance to lead a thing and I didn't do a great job at it, Oftentimes came down to that of a lack of personal organization. You know, I didn't kind of put in some important work ahead of time, and so I had to scramble to get a result at the end. And sometimes that works out, and sometimes it doesn't. And, in making yourself, you know, not making yourself visible enough or not being a communicator, not chiming in on meetings, I think there's a lot of a lot of times where had I been more aware that just that involvement, which takes work and energy to get yourself to, like, be there with your camera on and and, you know, to really to really be involved and not just, I saw a cartoon someone was like, how to how to, you know, make it appear that you've been contributing me to a meeting is to just say, thanks, everybody, at the end when you haven't said anything to the meeting. I mean, I so I've done that for a while, but I think I think avoiding those habits that require less energy, less investment, and just kind of, working on that is something I wish I'd started earlier. I heard I heard someone say that they've, it was another engineer at Netflix, It's Molly Stroup. She said, I realized that I wouldn't be an effective leader until I was an effective leader from in my own life, and that's really stuck with me of you just your personal inclination to wash the dishes and wipe down the kitchen counter when you'd rather just leave it for somebody else or not do it at all. I think that's that is a great little microcosm of, the kind of things you need to be, just willing to put the time into if you want to be a leader. And, you know, I mentioned I I mentioned, like, being on camera is an offhand thing, and there's plenty of reasons why in meetings. Like, I I'm glad our shift towards remote work and getting used to doing things over Zoom and the reasons why someone might be on camera. I'm not trying to denigrate any of those. But, in the the sort of being if if leadership is something you want to grow into, that putting this extra work in to provide energy and provide involvement to other people is really part of it. Just if you are there with contributions and and the feeling of, like, this is useful to be here and I am bringing my bringing my whole self here. Other people pick up on that, and that I think is is, super valuable. So I wish I'd I wish I'd focused on being that kind of person sooner. Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me, kind of on the opposite spectrum. I I used to work at Dell, and there's a guy who had been in the same position for, I don't know, 15 years, 20 years, something like that. And I asked him one day. His name is Joe. I'll I'll call out someone's name too, Joe O'Brien. I was like, Joe, you've don't you ever wanna, you know, climb up the ranks and be a manager or be a regional manager? He's and he said something he said, I'm really happy with my life, and I really like where I'm at, and so I'm comfortable here. And so I think on the other end of the spectrum, it's and this applies to leadership as well. You kinda have to understand what your personal goals are. Don't feel like you have to climb to leadership because someone else thinks you should climb to leadership. But if it's something that you feel like you want to do, then start to put those habits into your life. And so that that's some really good advice that you actually just gave there, which is be a proponent for yourself. Even if you're not ready, start putting yourself in that position to have those opportunities because you never know when you're gonna learn something, just because you're present. So that's good advice. So, yeah, you know, what speaking of tech, you've seen, you know, both you and I came sounds like we came into tech around the same time frame. So there's been a lot that's changed over, you know, 15, 20 years, and a lot has changed in the last year or 2. You know, you start talking about AI and all that kind of stuff. So what's your vision for the future? Are you always one of those on the forefront of technology? I think Pedro bought the r one Rabbit, which is a brand new AI device. But do you always try and embrace new technology? Do you kind of skirt the outsides to see what other people are doing with it? I think I'm a little more of a scooter. I I like keeping up with things, and I always have the the thought whenever I've seen I think, like, we all have maybe a a character, like, you know, the sort of person to which someone would say, okay, boomer. You know? The the idea of someone who's so fixed in their ways, they that all modern music is shit and, kids these days and nobody wants to work and all those kind of things you hear. Like, how did you become that kind of person? You know, we've had that kind of person throughout every generation, and I don't wanna be that person. And so, similarly, in technology, you know, I have my formative era of what I got good at and what I was excited about, and there are certain branches off of those things that I spent most of my time on that I continue to be excited about innovations in. And, of course, no one has time to sort of be fully on top of every new innovation that's out there. So I often have a feeling that I should be more on top of things, but also, like, keeping an openness and and an excitement about how other people are using things, I think, is is still important to have. I could do more of it, but at least, I think I'm maintaining the idea of of openness. I I am definitely surrounded by people who do a great job of more quickly embracing and tinkering with something new. And so, you know, I'm sort of maybe getting a secondhand keeping up by by keeping up with them. Yeah. Are there are are there any of these technologies that you're you've seen make an impact at, you know, at Netflix or any other companies recently? Yeah. I think the generative AI one is interesting for, like, specifically in writing code. I I gave a talk about this, a little over a year ago in which I expressed a lot of, if not skepticism, at least in encouraging people to pump their brakes on embracing it too quickly. Because, for instance, with writing code, you can only trust the output of an LLM when you can actually verify it. And so paradoxically, in order to make use of it, you have to kind of be able to do it on your own. But, also, there are time savings to be had. There are so many sort of, like, we still bump into boilerplate all the time, and to have something where you can, automate for yourself the repetitive things, you know, the the why should I be typing the same syntax over and over again perhaps when there's some way I can automate the snippet or the generation of it or say, hey. Write me a unit test for this thing. And to incorporate some of that without fully relying on it, I think, is something that I need to get better at and is a good skill to have. Yeah. That one is, I think, like, dominating the airways right now, and I think that the people who will make the most of it, maintain sort of, like, a little bit of a healthy distance. Like, they use it for what it is, but don't see it as, true artificial intelligence yet or or replacing their job. I think the other thing that, that I have isn't necessarily the future, maybe it's sort of standard now, but the idea of design tools that have less of a barrier to entry. So I am a big Figma user. Before that, it was InVision and Sketch and and those. And and, of course, like, I grew up with Photoshop and Adobe Suite. And, you know, spending every day in Photoshop, I got used to it and I can move around quickly, but it's difficult to learn that kind of thing. And the way design tools have shifted to you don't need to have spent 20 hours in this to learn how to do it. Everyone can participate in from lo fi to hi fi, getting their ideas in a visual form and building from there. I think that in all its various forms has been incredibly valuable, and I am glad to see that continuing to happen. There's so much engineering and design work within companies, even Netflix, where a lo fi, low code kind of way to do something is the really smart way to do it. And, I think that the more people who are encouraged to think of themselves as doing design work, if not necessarily being designers, is a really healthy thing. Yeah. I can tell you from firsthand experience, like, I used Sketch actually to design my first startups, like MVP app. Right? And I just kinda wireframe the whole thing out and gave it to the engineers, and we're like, make this happen. This looks good. And there were some elements of that design, like, found in some kinda, you know, kit I downloaded, like, some UI elements that I had pieced together and changed around a little bit. But you're right. It was and that allowed us to launch our app in this, like, you know, it wasn't completely no code, but, definitely low code in in the sense of me designing the front end and just handing it to the engineers to to make happen. So it definitely accelerated our development and put a product out faster. So, yeah, I think it's super important. And there's still a need for pros who are great at design, and and that won't go away. But the, lowering the barrier to entry, I think, has been amazing. Tools that continue to lower the barrier to entry to producing something, to getting the satisfaction of the thing I built I can see on screen, is great. Yeah. That's a great point. I also learned Photoshop and Illustrator, and I can still use those today. But for example, I'm actually I'm not gonna show it off in camera, but I'm wearing a shirt that I used AI to create 2 images, front and back. Took me 30 seconds when that would have taken me an illustrator, you know, 40 minutes, if if not more. But like you said, when you talk about programming and using AI for programming, you still have to know what you're doing because AI is not even anywhere to the point where people claim it can be. So it's smart to have that sort of healthy skepticism both with that type of a trend like AI, but I think in general, I think skirting the out or or, you know, skirting the edges of anything that you're approaching, whether you're thinking about being a leader or you're thinking about doing x or y. You know? Do your research, understand the pros and cons of anything, and find where it can help, lower the barrier. I think that was another great phrase that you used because, you know, I can have AI draft the first draft, and then I go and clean it up. Because robots, I probably shouldn't say this on recording, but robots will never be as great as humans. So, it's but it's yeah. I think it's that was a great term that you used, lowering the barrier. Yeah. Yeah. So so, you know, you've definitely gone on a a long journey. I think there's been some great advice. I think having, having empathy and, you know, leading on a two way road has been some great advice. So, you know, I guess for those who are listening who either don't know if they wanna be a leader yet or those who do know that they wanna keep climbing the ranks, what's some advice you gave advice for your younger self, but what would be some advice just in general that you would give to people who are out there looking to climb the ranks? Yeah. I would say raise your hand, when opportunities arise for anything. Volunteer to help set up your next team on-site. There's an extra project that would, you know, clean up some old data, you know, not to not to take on, so much work that you burn out or that you're sacrificing other parts of your life. But within, your ability to do so, you know, say yes to to things. Those, those opportunities that you get, are not just about the task that you might do. They are about your they provide you this chance to work with other people that you might not have already, to be seen by other people you might not have already. And one of the things that really, some of my close friends had to drill into me, at some point in my career was promote yourself of of, like, don't be so humble and self aware that you don't ever say something nice about the things you're proud of, or that you, hesitate to, say, yes. I can take care of that. And I think even beyond that, you know, my wife, will frequently point out, what she used phrases, my white boy confidence, which is just like, oh, sure. Why not? I could do it. Like, you might have seen the thing recently where, it was, like, 11% of all men surveyed believed that they could totally land a passenger airplane if they had to. You know? They could. They probably could. Right. Or, like, yeah. I could score a point against Serena Williams. So there's that there's overconfidence, and then I think there's a healthy amount of just a little bit more confidence than you actually maybe know you can back up. And so that, for me, has been helpful of I I used the example planning on-site. That's something I'm involved in right now. And am I do I have a track record of doing that before or having to do that? Like, little aspects maybe, not not to the size of of the one that I'm helping with right now. But I raised my hand and said yes, because this is gonna give me a chance to collaborate with some other people on bringing this thing together. It is fun to do some of this work to ensure that on those days, it is a valuable, engaging, worthwhile, fun experience for everybody. And even selfishly as part of my career, now there are more people, assuming I do a good job with this, who have seen me do a good job at this and have, gotten to see that I care and and putting some energy and bringing some ideas towards this thing. And whenever you have a chance to do that, that is, that's part of it. Being offered a leadership position, which is really what a lot of, you know, a lot of our our fortunes in life are dependent on what we do, and a lot of them are depending are dependent on what other people decide to do. And especially when we're talking about careers and jobs, almost always, it is someone else who is going to make a decision to hire you, to promote you, and they have to base that on something. And when you have been seen to be an empathetic, you know, knowledgeable, skilled person in all these various ways that go beyond just the code that you're writing, the systems that you can understand and talk about. All of those feed into the possibility of you getting to whatever level it is that you want to advance to. Yeah. That's that's great advice. So speaking about promoting yourself, where else, you know, can the listeners go find you after this? You know, they've seen this video. They've heard this conversation. Where else can they find your you know, follow your journey and, and learn more about you? This is a great time to mention that the that this is something I don't do a good job at yet. But so I have a I have a website, which as many of us, gets updated whenever I'm looking for a new job. And I've had a few updates since then. But, otherwise, I am not widely active online right now. Most of my time right now is spent, on my job, spending time with my wife and my dogs. I'm remodeling my office. So it's in sort of a lull of of personal promotion and and visibility. But there there are a few things. I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me at Simmer there. And so if you're interested in reaching out or talking more, you can send me a message there. Otherwise, my website, Simmer dot 0 0. When I first came across that domain extension, it was like, sweet. My portfolio site, with that, people are gonna have to say, oh. Of course, OO probably means out of office, which is also you know? Yeah. Yeah. So That's where you can find your nature photography. You're out of options. O o o. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I've got some of my past work there. And when I get to writing, which has been a goal of mine for a while, then it'll start popping up there. Amazing. Awesome. Well, yeah, I I think, as I as I say with most of our guests, I definitely learned a lot. I think it's always it's always cool to hear the common threads that everybody has, but also each individual story. Everyone has their own individual story. So it's it's definitely it was really cool to hear your journey. What I would say is for everyone listening, start go and follow him so that he has to start writing some more, because there were some great there were some great advice. Absolutely. And, I I you know, I I always listen to these podcasts back, but I might actually listen back and take some actual notes because it was it was a good podcast. But we greatly appreciate your time. Start your writing up again so when people follow you, they can actually follow current events. Update your out of office website, and thank you so much for your time. Any any parting words that you wanna say? Any last pieces of advice? I I really appreciate you 2 having me on here, and I think just say yes to things when you when you have the ability is is my advice. That's that's why I'm literally here talking to you as well right now. So yeah. Yeah. Say yes. 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