[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":457},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-primary":3,"footer-secondary":93,"footer-description":119,"trace-talks-gavin-doughtie":121,"trace-talks-gavin-doughtie-next":188,"sales-reps":206},{"items":4},[5,29,49,69],{"id":6,"title":7,"url":8,"page":8,"children":9},"522e608a-77b0-4333-820d-d4f44be2ade1","Solutions",null,[10,15,20,25],{"id":11,"title":12,"url":8,"page":13},"fcafe85a-a798-4710-9e7a-776fe413aae5","Headless CMS",{"permalink":14},"/solutions/headless-cms",{"id":16,"title":17,"url":8,"page":18},"79972923-93cf-4777-9e32-5c9b0315fc10","Backend-as-a-Service",{"permalink":19},"/solutions/backend-as-a-service",{"id":21,"title":22,"url":8,"page":23},"0fa8d0c1-7b64-4f6f-939d-d7fdb99fc407","Product Information",{"permalink":24},"/solutions/product-information-management",{"id":26,"title":27,"url":28,"page":8},"63946d54-6052-4780-8ff4-91f5a9931dcc","100+ Things to Build","https://directus.io/blog/100-tools-apps-and-platforms-you-can-build-with-directus",{"id":30,"title":31,"url":8,"page":8,"children":32},"8ab4f9b1-f3e2-44d6-919b-011d91fe072f","Resources",[33,37,41,45],{"id":34,"title":35,"url":36,"page":8},"f951fb84-8777-4b84-9e91-996fe9d25483","Documentation","https://docs.directus.io",{"id":38,"title":39,"url":40,"page":8},"366febc7-a538-4c08-a326-e6204957f1e3","Guides","https://docs.directus.io/guides/",{"id":42,"title":43,"url":44,"page":8},"aeb9128e-1c5f-417f-863c-2449416433cd","Community","https://directus.chat",{"id":46,"title":47,"url":48,"page":8},"da1c2ed8-0a77-49b0-a903-49c56cb07de5","Release Notes","https://github.com/directus/directus/releases",{"id":50,"title":51,"url":8,"page":8,"children":52},"d61fae8c-7502-494a-822f-19ecff3d0256","Support",[53,57,61,65],{"id":54,"title":55,"url":56,"page":8},"8c43c781-7ebd-475f-a931-747e293c0a88","Issue Tracker","https://github.com/directus/directus/issues",{"id":58,"title":59,"url":60,"page":8},"d77bb78e-cf7b-4e01-932a-514414ba49d3","Feature Requests","https://github.com/directus/directus/discussions?discussions_q=is:open+sort:top",{"id":62,"title":63,"url":64,"page":8},"4346be2b-2c53-476e-b53b-becacec626a6","Community Chat","https://discord.com/channels/725371605378924594/741317677397704757",{"id":66,"title":67,"url":68,"page":8},"26c115d2-49f7-4edc-935e-d37d427fb89d","Cloud Dashboard","https://directus.cloud",{"id":70,"title":71,"url":8,"page":8,"children":72},"49141403-4f20-44ac-8453-25ace1265812","Organization",[73,78,84,88],{"id":74,"title":75,"url":76,"page":77},"1f36ea92-8a5e-47c8-914c-9822a8b9538a","About","/about",{"permalink":76},{"id":79,"title":80,"url":81,"page":82},"b84bf525-5471-4b14-a93c-225f6c386005","Careers","#",{"permalink":83},"/careers",{"id":85,"title":86,"url":87,"page":8},"86aabc3a-433d-434b-9efa-ad1d34be0a34","Brand Assets","https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lBOTba4RaA5ikqOn8Ewo4RYzD0XcymG9?usp=sharing",{"id":89,"title":90,"url":8,"page":91},"8d2fa1e3-198e-4405-81e1-2ceb858bc237","Contact",{"permalink":92},"/contact",{"items":94},[95,101,107,113],{"id":96,"title":97,"url":8,"page":98,"children":100},"8a1b7bfa-429d-4ffc-a650-2a5fdcf356da","Cloud Policies",{"permalink":99},"/cloud-policies",[],{"id":102,"title":103,"url":81,"page":104,"children":106},"bea848ef-828f-4306-8017-6b00ec5d4a0c","License",{"permalink":105},"/bsl",[],{"id":108,"title":109,"url":81,"page":110,"children":112},"4e914f47-4bee-42b7-b445-3119ee4196ef","Terms",{"permalink":111},"/terms",[],{"id":114,"title":115,"url":81,"page":116,"children":118},"ea69eda6-d317-4981-8421-fcabb1826bfd","Privacy",{"permalink":117},"/privacy",[],{"description":120},"\u003Cp>A composable backend to build your Headless CMS, BaaS, and more. \u003C/p>",{"id":122,"slug":123,"vimeo_id":124,"description":125,"tile":126,"length":127,"resources":8,"people":128,"episode_number":138,"published":139,"title":140,"video_transcript_html":141,"video_transcript_text":142,"content":8,"status":143,"episode_people":144,"recommendations":175,"season":176,"seo":8},"f8864aad-281c-4921-9722-3b6b29d57eb4","gavin-doughtie","896604270","Delve into Gavin's unique journey from his early years in the entertainment industry to his evolution as a developer, and gain insights into the intersection of technology and corporate dynamics.","07047069-4bdf-46aa-83f2-38ab02c6cf2e",40,[129,132,135],{"name":130,"url":131},"John Daniels","https://www.linkedin.com/in/jwdaniels/",{"name":133,"url":134},"Pedro Pizarro","https://www.linkedin.com/in/pedropizarrojr/",{"name":136,"url":137},"Gavin Doughtie","https://www.linkedin.com/in/doughtie/",2,"2024-01-11","Gavin Doughtie, Senior Developer at Aon","\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: There was no one, like, technology There were a lot of little things that would guide me towards creative aspects or technology things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Welcome, Gavin. Thanks for joining, John and I on the podcast today. You know, obviously, as as we know, you know, you're a senior dev at Aon, and we wanted to get some background on on your career, the lessons that you've learned, going from development to senior development and some management and leadership in there, and really touch on your background to see if it's if it's useful for the folks who are listening in. Definitely gonna be useful for John and I. But we'd love to learn a little bit more about your background quickly if you'd like to summarize it in your own words.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, yeah, we can kick things off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: I was born yeah. So I, I grew up in Houston, Texas. My father was a professor at Rice University, and, unlike you might expect, he taught Elizabethan folk songs and ballads and English literature. But it was a very technical college, so I spent a lot of my, like, childhood time hanging out on a college campus, and a lot of my my peers were other faculty brats. And so there was a certain amount of cultural predestination towards reading things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I did a lot of that growing up, read a lot of science fiction. Because of science fiction, I like science fiction movies. Because of science fiction movies, I like Star Trek. Because Star Trek, I went to science fiction conventions. Because of that, I saw some Ray Harryhausen movies with stop motion monsters.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I got all excited about special effects and making movies. After that, I said, well, I'm gonna go to film school, and I'm gonna go to I'm gonna go to USC Film School, which was the one that, you know, George Lucas went to and now has funded heavily. And I applied. I applied you know, my backup schools were UCLA and NYU. So I got into, the film school at NYU, and I got into, UCLA as not just a regular undeclared undergraduate.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And USC Film School rejected me. And so I'm I'm, like, I am not staying in Houston, Texas a minute longer. I'm gonna go to UCLA. So I went there and started doing classes and meeting people and figuring out how to live in Los Angeles, and I kept applying to film school. And the second time I applied though, they also rejected me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But I, you know, I, like, learned some stuff from that, and, and then worked on my application and applied. And then the third time I applied, they also rejected me, but the 4th the 4th time worked.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Goodness.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: So, so I started, at USC's film school as a junior in the early eighties, and I went there for a couple of years. And I worked on people's student films. But the, the thing that I think a lot of people miss out is you just do a lot of production, when you start out. You know? So you don't get too precious about it, and you try a lot of different things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And you come in and show it to your peers, and they critique it. And you try to, like, clamp down on your own defensiveness long enough to take a lesson away from it and try to improve the work you do the next time, and we were all helping each other out. And then when you're working on someone else's film, instead of doing it all yourself and being totally in control, you have to learn how to give up control and and get something from someone else to allow them to contribute and allow them to learn how to contribute if their skills in one area or another are not as strong as yours. And that idea that it's not a you're not a one man band. You can always you can always help people do better work, become better at what they're doing, and also, become much better yourself than if you're in a room, you know, reading hacker news.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, you're gonna you're gonna be better if you have a chance to, in one way or another, work with other people. So, anyway, the the the short story is even at that time, I wanted to you know, I was writing screenplays all the time and writing feature length spec screenplays and stuff. And the the screenplay format for for people who haven't seen it is kind of a complicated technical format, and that's it's a pain in the butt to do it on a typewriter. And it's even more of a pain to go back and make revisions to things. And the film is it's much like software.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You you're continuously revising it until you actually get the product to the customer. So word processors, even at their primitive mid eighties form, were were really an important thing. Like, they were like, yeah. We totally want that. We want that right now.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I don't care if I have to shovel coal into the computer. It's still better than a typewriter. So I had, I had 3 roommates when I was in film school. 2 of them were film students, and the other one was a computer science student. And he said, well, if you wanna use word processing, you can go down to the computer lab, which was across the street from our dorm, and, and get an account on this this VAX computer.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And you get to use the cool word processor, like the really good text editor, e max. So I was there in film school writing screenplays with e max, and that was that was sort of how I got into using computers. Because they were so primitive, you had to develop maybe more computer skills than you would today. But I I was not there to develop computer skills. I was there to do word processing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But when I got out of film school, as I was struggling along writing spec screenplays and directing, you know, no budget music videos for bands that did not have labels. You know, I was also temping a lot. And and this is this is how the how the how the road forked for me as I was working in a lot of offices, to, like, pay my rent. And, I was in there as a production word processor. You know, I basically sit down and type legal briefs, a lot of them, a lot a lot of law firms, but I've worked for all kinds of companies.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Typing's a boring thing to do. So, you know, what you do is you look for opportunities to automate stuff. And if you've got a technical mind and you're curious about stuff like, oh, I can automate this and I can automate that. And, you know, I could write a for loop, and it would do it a bunch of times. And so, eventually, what happened is I learned to program really writing a package of add on macros to write screenwriting to do screenwriting with.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, you know, I WordPerfect at the time had a terrible but Turing complete programming environment, And I and a couple of other guys worked together to build screenwriting software, and we sold it. So it was an entrepreneurial venture in software back in the eighties and very early nineties. And that was sort of where I'd internalized a lot of things about programming. And then, you know, subsequently to that, I took a course in c and a course in Lisp and through UCLA Extension and just tried to backfill some of that information. But it was kind of a one thing led to another and in true, like, Los Angeles Hollywood style.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I had friends, and some of them needed some software, and I convinced them to do one thing or another that I didn't necessarily know very well at the time. But through the research I had been able to do, so this is probably the right solution for these guys. So I I did a lot of that. I did a lot of Macintosh relational database stuff, the an old 4 GL called 4th dimension, which again was a programming environment. So it was yet another programming language was proprietary to the tool.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It did have a compiler, and it did have the concept of pointers, so I got a lot of familiarity with that. And that that kinda takes us up to the the first software company that I worked for.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Your journey actually sounds very similar to my journey, and I have a question at the end of my story I'm gonna tell here for a second. So the question I'm gonna tell a story after the question. The question is, can you remember a time when you were a teenager or a child that really triggered your love for movies and film? Because it sounds like you you went to school for film and it took you 4 times to get in. And then you went on this journey, this broad journey of film and doing these projects and getting inter introduced to computers and all of that, which is a similar journey to me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I I can specifically remember a snowboarding trip that I went on when I was about 15 years old, 16 years old. It was kind of a a snow camp, and this is the first time I'd ever seen a Mac computer. It was probably the first time I'd seen a real computer in general. I think I was using a Tandy 5000 way back in the day. And so we are at the snowboard camp, and this guy had a computer, and he was filming with a Handycam, and he would film all day all the snowboarding stuff, and then he would edit the video and show the video at night.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>When all of us would gather after dinner, we'd see this video of everybody on the on the screen. And so that that memory specifically is what really pushed me into creativity, and I I went to school first for I did a little bit of film, and then I moved into graphic design and website design. So kind of a similar journey. I just kind of found a need and then did small projects for friends and grew from film to graphic design to mobile design, web design, all that kind of stuff. But is there a memory that you can recall that really kicked you off into this whole creativity realm, either when you were a kid or a teenager?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Is there that one memory in your brain that's always like, okay. That could have been the beginning stage for this entire journey?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: You know, I would say it crept up. You know, it was more more one of those things where there's a little bit of interest and a little bit of gratification, and both of those things kind of snowballed over time. You know, so there was no, like, the light shines down on me kind of moment. There were certainly I mean, there's certainly films that I watched, that were like, oh, yeah. This is, you know, this is a really significant film.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>This is going to change things. Like, as a science fiction nerd growing up in the seventies, like, I would go see all the science fiction movies when they came out, and they were they were pretty uniformly terrible except for the Andromeda strain. But I remember sitting in the movie theater on opening day watching Star Wars going, like, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>This is this is it. Right? And and to a to a somewhat lesser extent, Raiders of the Lost Ark, which I thought was, like, cinematically more interesting, but not as not as kind of cultural and, filmmaking technology, paradigmatically different.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: So, so, like, you know, I could talk about the movie part. The technology part, you know, I think probably the reason I spent so much time in film and special effects and and that kind of stuff, was that computers, you know, for a man my age, computers at the time were not that interesting. They were a character mode. They were very hard to get a hold of. You know, I didn't didn't have one in my house.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Didn't have a color TV. Didn't have a VCR. Didn't have cable TV when I was growing up. Had to walk to school uphill both ways, etcetera, etcetera. But, right, it was just sort of normal at the at that time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And so computers were extremely primitive, and I, you know, I did seek them out and got some time on them even as a teenager. But it it involved like, I bicycle to RadioShack, bought a book about basic programming, took it home, wrote a program on legal pads, bicycle back to RadioShack, and the the the clerk was, like, whatever. I don't know what he's doing. And I was, like, typing it into the computer so I could run it. You know, it didn't save it or anything.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's just, like, 300 lines of basic and oh, look. It works. What's what's this? You know? And so I had I had those kinds of experiences.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And one of the things that I found, like, the snowballing effect was what I what I would call the gratification loop of programming, which is you can do a little something and understand a little something, and then you see it work. And in creative endeavors, it's never that clear cut. You know? If you've worked on something for a long time, you have an idea if you're moving it in the direction yet or not. But, but in programming, it's just obvious, like, you did it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Right? So that kind of dopamine cycle, if you will, is a lot tighter. Now with digital production and especially now as you get into this AI and this generation stuff, I think people are gonna be having that dopamine cycle, with creative endeavors as well. So there's, you know, it's gonna all merge together eventually. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But there was no there was no one, like, technology There were a lot of little things that would guide me towards creative aspects or technology things.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: It it sounds like it it really crept up on you and and it's all it sounded like in the beginning, it was more to solve an immediate need. Right? As you were working on different projects and you need to solve some immediate need that I need to send\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: you a screen play or pay my rent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Exactly. And and that just reminds me of, you know, there was there was a company that I was at before where the CTO always said that that lazy people make the best engineers and and developers, and I always thought that was really strange. But the more I listened to him say it, it was really about, like like you mentioned, you're trying to solve for these automation or these automate away these mundane tasks, and you wanna be able to do that so you could free more of your time to do something more interesting. And it's not to say the act of of developing the work is lazy. It's just that you wanna solve something that a computer could do.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, you know, now coming into the age of AI and everything else, it's, you know, all these possibilities\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: will go\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: into that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: Mark is, like, is it gonna be more more of that, or are we going into an entirely new and disruptive paradigm? And I the jury's still kinda out on that. Right. Could go either way. You kids are gonna have to figure it out.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Yeah. Do you find it\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: I'm hoping I'm hoping it'll time out, like, just around the time I hit retirement AI figures out longevity and, and UBI.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's like at a certain point, you know, you get to computers had a limited capacity to solve a limited number of mechanical issues. They've obviously grown in technical ability to the point where it's Mhmm.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>At some point what it can do most of what a human can do or 90% and, you know, there are What are you saying?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: The 90% of what humans what humans have been able to contribute to the economy, particularly the industrial economy has been designed to be something that could eventually be replaced with a sufficiently capable machine. Right?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Right.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: You know? So the a lot of the activity and I I I it is in fact a concern when I'm programming now and I'm writing something that's like, well, this is complex, but it doesn't really doesn't really dig into any kind of uniquely human things that I'm bringing to this solution. So I'm I'm right now just chewing on, like, what can I do to, to offload that kind of work? You know, can I can I convince, a large language model to absorb a bunch of this complexity for me so that I can work more as a director? And and this is this is, like, the metaphor that that that I've been toying with a lot is, you know, you make a motion picture in what you're doing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And and I'm not to say, like, I haven't done Hollywood for 30 plus years. Right? So I've been a software engineer this whole time. But, the process is you gather people together. Everyone has a bit of expertise or has deep expertise at at at one or more skills, and you are going to combine that expertise to produce some something that's, you know, greater than the sum of its parts.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think a lot of work that we have is going to feel more more like the role of a producer or director in a film, you know, where and I like and believe me, it pains me to leave out actors and writers and and and people like that who have a lot of skill that they're bringing to the table. But but I think what you're really looking at is expressing an intent to some instrumentality that will deliver you a a solution based on that intent. You know? So show me a picture of an astronaut riding a unicorn might be your intent. You wanna see that for some reason.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then, just as you might have asked a human artist to produce that for you, now, you know, a an AI artist will produce that for you. Whether or not it's good or what you wanted, that I think that's the, the friction in the question that we have moving forward. I I have a lot of artist friends, and I would like to see them stay gainfully employed and bring all their many wonderful skills to, humanity still. So I don't, I don't I don't think there's a a quick solution to that. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But I am digressing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Yeah. Do you find so I think back when all of us were you know, Pedro and I are certainly a little a little more junior than yourselves, not too much. You're you're not that much older than us. But back when we were getting into technology, whether it be videos or software or computers, you know, the the learning curve, in my opinion, was a little bit easier because there was only so many technologies that we could learn and study, you know, so we could dive into a programming language. You know, when I started diving into Dreamweaver, there really wasn't too much out there on the market to learn, so I kinda just went with one platform.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So it was a little bit easier back then. In today's age, you know, there's AI. There's all these other other languages to do everything. There's 500 ways to do everything. So do you find that more exciting that there's so many ways to accomplish a task, or do you find it more daunting?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And and do you still kind of traditionally go back to some fallbacks that you you are more comfortable with?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: So, you know, I I think this is a question that will always come up in in the life of any human being who's trying to be productive in in a world of economic value exchange these days. Right? It's been a long time since I felt like I had great depth in a piece of technology. You know? Like, I started as a web developer at Google in 2006, and I thought, like, okay.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I have more depth in this than most people, but I don't feel that way now, like, well over 15 years later. So it's, you know, the the the the technology, space will always grow.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Mhmm.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: There is there's always a trade off between building out your production capacity and producing. Right? And some people get obsessed with production and ignore production capacity, and some people will go the other way. When I was word processing, I often would encounter a certain sort of person who would say, well, I'll just retype it. And I was like, you could copy paste it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You could write a macro. You could write a mer mail merge program. You know, there are a lot of things you could do if you invested some time in understanding something that would pay off not only for this project. It might be a wash in terms of this one thing, but then it would pay off again and again and again moving forward. And I still have those conversations within my own head every day when I'm writing software.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Right? It's like, how much do I refactor this today? How per how how much production do I have to get done today to accomplish all the other goals that I'm trying to do? And how much, how much infrastructure should I be putting down for myself or learning about to increase my my capacity moving forward. It's continual juggling act and, sometimes in opposition to, this gratification loop.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, it is not gratifying to have a bug you can't figure out. That's just a pain in the butt. It's no fun to write unit tests. That is just a pain in the butt. But if you write the unit tests, you may not have to deal with the bug, and they'll pile up and give you more and more robust code and better understanding of the code that you've already written because you can refer to the tests.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And as my my colleagues will tell you, I am not the most meticulous of unit testers, particularly for user interface code, But I always find that it pays off. So that's the same thing with acquiring knowledge or studying things. It's like, it'll always pay off, but you have to balance it out with what you have to get done, like, right now. But I think most people on the side of production over increasing production capacity, especially especially people who are newer.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: One of my next questions was going to be around the future because, obviously, we're in this these days where I mentioned there's kinda new technology every week. There's just something different, including AI. So how do you see you've already mentioned some of the things that you're building. You see them being used for the next 10 to 15 years. I guess, where do you see some stability in what you're what people are developing these days that'll be around for a long term in a long time also, long term long time?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But what are some things that you think are kind of at the end of their life cycle or things that are being developed that really have a a short shelf life? Is there anything in your head that you see both on the short term side of things and the long term side of things?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: Do you\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: think do you think AI will, like I I personally think AI is gonna change the game. It'll it'll morph over time, but I think AI is gonna be around a long time as opposed to maybe something like NFTs, which kinda came and went quickly. So I'm just kinda curious if there's anything you've ever thought about along those lines.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: Well, I mean, there have been a few times where I'm like, okay. This is this is an important thing. I'm really gonna have to dig in on this. And, some of it's philosophical. So the big technology choices that I've made where I've decided to spend time in a discretionary way and not at the behest of an employer has always been what is technology that is going to be portable.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And by that, I mean, knowledge and understanding that is not at that is not controlled by a single vendor, particularly, and that can be applied broadly. So JavaScript, I learned on my own time. You know? By day, I was programming in c plus plus. Machine learning and AI, I am still learning on my own time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? And the prod the side projects that I'm doing around that are all on my own time. They're not they're not any learning how to do, you know, that web 2.0 style AJAX JavaScript stuff. That was all that was all stuff I thought, well, I need to know how to do this regardless of who's paying me. So you're you're looking for moments in the marketplace where it's like, like, people people are gonna want this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People are gonna want more and more of it, and no vendor is going to capture all the value from it. You know, I I spent a chunk of time in the nineties as a, a Windows developer. So I was writing an application, couple several applications for the Windows platform. And I did not go home and screw around with Windows in the evenings because I, like you know, however you might feel about Windows technically, that was that was Microsoft's game. You were always gonna be playing in Microsoft's game if you were developing for Windows.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I I think, you know, I have the same skittishness about building stuff that could only work with the OpenAI APIs. I think OpenAI is doing great work. You know? Windows became dominant by being the thing that people want, and I think AI is doing the same thing in collaboration with Microsoft to some extent. So I'm I'm skittish about that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? I I had some interest in the the crypto space, particularly the, you know, executing code on on chain Mhmm. Because it had the promise of giving us a mechanism where the infrastructure wasn't owned or controlled by a particular entity. The reality is a lot fuzzier and not nearly as as idealistic as I would have wanted. But that was where, you know, the interest that I did have in it came from.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's this idea that I can create value and I can distribute that value and I can I can get, remunerated for the effort that I put into creating that value in some way that is not, at the at the whim of some some other provider platform owner, or potential competitor? So that's why I've always been very big on web based technologies, even though I spent several years at Google writing, you know, iOS native apps. So that's that's sort of, you know, a roundabout way of saying, what do you what do you think you can take with you? You know? What will, there as OpenAI starts to, like, announce, hey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Look. We've cut our price in half, and we've we've introduced retrieval augmented, generation. And, you know, what companies are basically were only doing that, plus not very much else that are now, like Mhmm. You know, their heads are exploding. Oh my god, you know, we're only 3 times cheaper than OpenAI used to be and, you know, now we don't have a competitive mode.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So there's a certain amount of figuring out what can you do. I mean, it's the same thing. You know? Go back to Hollywood. It's the same thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? What have you got? The only thing that you've got that's different from anything anybody else has is your unique intent and your unique perspective on the world and your take on a problem and your your skills at working towards a solution that embraces what's unique about you. And I think that, you know, if I were gonna give this as advice, you know, scratch your own itch and be really scared of proprietary platforms. And whether the platform is, you know, Google or Facebook or you know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I I I don't see it as much as I used to, but there was a long time I would run into kids who were like, c sharp is the best. We're gonna, like, build this with c sharp. And it's, like, you know, however however good old programming language c sharp might be, it was entirely the play toy of people in Redmond. And you're you're locking yourself into a particular vendor and when you do that. So, you know, there's there's usually a platform and a platform a set of platform technologies.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And if it's a proprietary platform and they're starting to move you to proprietary technologies, you're like, well, how confident am I in this platform? How much do I believe? How much am I going to risk my career on the Atari ST or the 3 d o game console or, you know, the Amiga 2 1,000 or the Palm Pilot. You know, there are all these technologies that, you know, were opportunities for people. Like, I shipped this app on this platform, and the platform's getting uptake, and it's gonna be great.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But then if it loses a platform battle, then you're kind of stuck. Like, okay. I've gotta personally retool to either target a new platform, or you could make technology choices and, you know, choices about your own efforts that will lead you to knowledge, skill, and understanding that you can take with you to the next thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: I think, Gavin, I I think we could probably continue this conversation for an hour. But, what I'd like to do is kind of allow you to wrap up with a little we know that I like to talk. We know that you like to talk. But I'd love to wrap all of this up. You've got a a very incredible and kind of experienced life of just different things that you've tried, different technologies you've seen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, if you have one piece of advice or one thing that you love that you want to make sure everybody knows about, I mean, give us, like, a good as long as you want outro of kind of some of the some of the things that you've learned, advice you have for others, things that you you care about.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: Oh, you mean you're, like, giving an old man permission to rant for just a minute? Okay.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Yeah. Go yeah. Go for it. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: So so if you're at the beginning of your software engineering career, I would still recommend that you learn how to type at least about 40 words a minute with some accuracy. There's plenty of ways to learn to do that. It's worth the effort because it will clear space in your head for things that are actually difficult problems if you don't have to worry about the mechanical stress of typing something. This is probably not gonna be advice that's gonna be worth anything in 20 years, but it's going to be advice that's useful for the next 5. So that's a little thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>A little thing that I've been doing more recently that has been helpful is, this is such a cliche, regular exercise. I am I've been doing barbell stuff. Obviously, I'm not a giant person, but the thing that I didn't expect to get out of it, the the physical benefits are, of course, all the ones you hear about. The thing that I didn't expect to get out of it was the psychological training of stepping up and repeatedly doing something difficult that you didn't want to do in the moment in order to get a benefit further down the line. Right?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And just that mental exercise is incredibly valuable. If you're if you're getting it while you, you know, exercise your body, if you're like most Americans, you will be ahead of most Americans. So it's it's worth doing, and I say this as someone who despises my time in the gym. But that the mental thing was, like, the unusual thing, and it's something that I I would encourage, especially, programmers who are all interested in technology to explore and spend some time on, and it'll it'll pay off. The time the time will come back to you, many fold, especially over the the length of your life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>The other thing is get out and engage with people. Almost all the jobs that I've had had a component of knowing someone. And it's not to say that people hired me because they knew me, but they wanted to hire me because they knew me, if that makes any sense. Like, I had to be able to do the job and convince everyone and convince people who didn't know me I could do the job. But the personal connections, were always really important, And they were connections forged by oftentimes working with someone and demonstrating over a period of weeks or months or sometimes years that I could do a job, that I was good to work with, that I wasn't that I was trying to contribute towards the success of the project and to their success.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And that, you know, wouldn't say it ingratiated me, but it meant that they they knew it they knew what I was about, and they could trust me and that they would they would be my champion, you know, at the next place. It's like, oh, and, you know, combine that sometimes with the skills that that are necessary at that moment in technology history. I think that was that was a good a good combination for a lot of my career. You know, there are people I work with now that I worked with 20 years ago at the startup I left Picasa for. So they kept on with their careers and, you know, when I was looking for something new to do, they're like, well, you know, we're starting up this new technology group.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You could come come be the first hire, hire your own boss. So, you know all of those things. Life is long. Your relationships with other people are going to be valuable to you while you have them and then later on. You shouldn't have them for their later value.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You should have them to be present with other people now. You know, be collegial if if that's all you've got in common, and if you have other interests that you share, by all means, you know, talk about them. I I have a friend that I worked at at 5 different companies with in Los Angeles, including, including Google. So, we just you know, wherever one of us landed, we'd go like, you know, I think Mike's available or I think Gavin's available. And, you know, that that worked out well for both of us over time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, you know, keep up with people. They're they're important, And, you know, find ways to work on projects with people. If you're if you're early on, especially if you're not in a, you know, a big metropolis with a lot of technology going on, You know, open work on open source projects with people, take their take their poll request reviews seriously, Try to contribute to the project. What's in it for you is the process of contributing, not not a an immediate byproduct.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: It's like, one of my my oldest son was like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to, like, you know, help you out in your old age, dad, you know? And I'm like, you don't owe me anything. You know? The the the the good that I got out of the process of raising you was the process of raising you. You know?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Go have your own great life. And that's that's where I wanna end it. Go have your own great life. Like, technology is a a great thing to do. If you hate it, though, you should find something else to do.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Pedro Pizzaro: Yeah. Absolutely. So parting words of wisdom from Gavin. Work out your work out your body, work out your mind, and get out there, meet as many people as you can, form that community. And Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, I think that's what life's about. Alright. Is there anywhere that people can follow your work, or do you have a website or a blog or maybe just a social media?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin Doughtie: Well, I have a cop website as they used to call it at gavin dotcom, which is a an a ill maintained WordPress blog. You can find me, I'm still a little more active on x than I that I'm comfortable with, but you can find me at Gavin Doughty on on Twitter. Twitter, Elon. And, and and basically, the way you spell my name is weird enough that I have no hopes of Internet privacy at this point in my life. So it's Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Gavin, g a v I n, like the governor of California, and Doughty is d o u g h t I e, like bread dough in a necktie.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>John Daniels: Yeah. Well, yeah, I I also will second Pedro's, words there. I I definitely appreciate the advice that you gave at the end outside of technology. Pedro and I have been at the same you know, worked at 3 companies together. We Right.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Kind of are have that human to human relationship. Funnily enough, on a second topic, today is my 15th Twitterversary. So I've been on Twitter for 15 years today. But, yeah, I would definitely appreciate the the the technical and nontechnical advice you you gave today, Gavin. I think a lot of our viewers will appreciate both of those because getting out amongst humans, I think, is important as we start to enter this world of, VR headsets.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So we'll stay real out of the matrix while we do. But, but we appreciate the time today, and and, hopefully, people can give some feedback about what they've learned from your your story.\u003C/p>","There was no one, like, technology There were a lot of little things that would guide me towards creative aspects or technology things. Welcome, Gavin. Thanks for joining, John and I on the podcast today. You know, obviously, as as we know, you know, you're a senior dev at Aon, and we wanted to get some background on on your career, the lessons that you've learned, going from development to senior development and some management and leadership in there, and really touch on your background to see if it's if it's useful for the folks who are listening in. Definitely gonna be useful for John and I. But we'd love to learn a little bit more about your background quickly if you'd like to summarize it in your own words. And, yeah, we can kick things off. I was born yeah. So I, I grew up in Houston, Texas. My father was a professor at Rice University, and, unlike you might expect, he taught Elizabethan folk songs and ballads and English literature. But it was a very technical college, so I spent a lot of my, like, childhood time hanging out on a college campus, and a lot of my my peers were other faculty brats. And so there was a certain amount of cultural predestination towards reading things. So I did a lot of that growing up, read a lot of science fiction. Because of science fiction, I like science fiction movies. Because of science fiction movies, I like Star Trek. Because Star Trek, I went to science fiction conventions. Because of that, I saw some Ray Harryhausen movies with stop motion monsters. I got all excited about special effects and making movies. After that, I said, well, I'm gonna go to film school, and I'm gonna go to I'm gonna go to USC Film School, which was the one that, you know, George Lucas went to and now has funded heavily. And I applied. I applied you know, my backup schools were UCLA and NYU. So I got into, the film school at NYU, and I got into, UCLA as not just a regular undeclared undergraduate. And USC Film School rejected me. And so I'm I'm, like, I am not staying in Houston, Texas a minute longer. I'm gonna go to UCLA. So I went there and started doing classes and meeting people and figuring out how to live in Los Angeles, and I kept applying to film school. And the second time I applied though, they also rejected me. But I, you know, I, like, learned some stuff from that, and, and then worked on my application and applied. And then the third time I applied, they also rejected me, but the 4th the 4th time worked. Goodness. So, so I started, at USC's film school as a junior in the early eighties, and I went there for a couple of years. And I worked on people's student films. But the, the thing that I think a lot of people miss out is you just do a lot of production, when you start out. You know? So you don't get too precious about it, and you try a lot of different things. And you come in and show it to your peers, and they critique it. And you try to, like, clamp down on your own defensiveness long enough to take a lesson away from it and try to improve the work you do the next time, and we were all helping each other out. And then when you're working on someone else's film, instead of doing it all yourself and being totally in control, you have to learn how to give up control and and get something from someone else to allow them to contribute and allow them to learn how to contribute if their skills in one area or another are not as strong as yours. And that idea that it's not a you're not a one man band. You can always you can always help people do better work, become better at what they're doing, and also, become much better yourself than if you're in a room, you know, reading hacker news. You know, you're gonna you're gonna be better if you have a chance to, in one way or another, work with other people. So, anyway, the the the short story is even at that time, I wanted to you know, I was writing screenplays all the time and writing feature length spec screenplays and stuff. And the the screenplay format for for people who haven't seen it is kind of a complicated technical format, and that's it's a pain in the butt to do it on a typewriter. And it's even more of a pain to go back and make revisions to things. And the film is it's much like software. You you're continuously revising it until you actually get the product to the customer. So word processors, even at their primitive mid eighties form, were were really an important thing. Like, they were like, yeah. We totally want that. We want that right now. I don't care if I have to shovel coal into the computer. It's still better than a typewriter. So I had, I had 3 roommates when I was in film school. 2 of them were film students, and the other one was a computer science student. And he said, well, if you wanna use word processing, you can go down to the computer lab, which was across the street from our dorm, and, and get an account on this this VAX computer. And you get to use the cool word processor, like the really good text editor, e max. So I was there in film school writing screenplays with e max, and that was that was sort of how I got into using computers. Because they were so primitive, you had to develop maybe more computer skills than you would today. But I I was not there to develop computer skills. I was there to do word processing. But when I got out of film school, as I was struggling along writing spec screenplays and directing, you know, no budget music videos for bands that did not have labels. You know, I was also temping a lot. And and this is this is how the how the how the road forked for me as I was working in a lot of offices, to, like, pay my rent. And, I was in there as a production word processor. You know, I basically sit down and type legal briefs, a lot of them, a lot a lot of law firms, but I've worked for all kinds of companies. Typing's a boring thing to do. So, you know, what you do is you look for opportunities to automate stuff. And if you've got a technical mind and you're curious about stuff like, oh, I can automate this and I can automate that. And, you know, I could write a for loop, and it would do it a bunch of times. And so, eventually, what happened is I learned to program really writing a package of add on macros to write screenwriting to do screenwriting with. So, you know, I WordPerfect at the time had a terrible but Turing complete programming environment, And I and a couple of other guys worked together to build screenwriting software, and we sold it. So it was an entrepreneurial venture in software back in the eighties and very early nineties. And that was sort of where I'd internalized a lot of things about programming. And then, you know, subsequently to that, I took a course in c and a course in Lisp and through UCLA Extension and just tried to backfill some of that information. But it was kind of a one thing led to another and in true, like, Los Angeles Hollywood style. I had friends, and some of them needed some software, and I convinced them to do one thing or another that I didn't necessarily know very well at the time. But through the research I had been able to do, so this is probably the right solution for these guys. So I I did a lot of that. I did a lot of Macintosh relational database stuff, the an old 4 GL called 4th dimension, which again was a programming environment. So it was yet another programming language was proprietary to the tool. It did have a compiler, and it did have the concept of pointers, so I got a lot of familiarity with that. And that that kinda takes us up to the the first software company that I worked for. Your journey actually sounds very similar to my journey, and I have a question at the end of my story I'm gonna tell here for a second. So the question I'm gonna tell a story after the question. The question is, can you remember a time when you were a teenager or a child that really triggered your love for movies and film? Because it sounds like you you went to school for film and it took you 4 times to get in. And then you went on this journey, this broad journey of film and doing these projects and getting inter introduced to computers and all of that, which is a similar journey to me. I I can specifically remember a snowboarding trip that I went on when I was about 15 years old, 16 years old. It was kind of a a snow camp, and this is the first time I'd ever seen a Mac computer. It was probably the first time I'd seen a real computer in general. I think I was using a Tandy 5000 way back in the day. And so we are at the snowboard camp, and this guy had a computer, and he was filming with a Handycam, and he would film all day all the snowboarding stuff, and then he would edit the video and show the video at night. When all of us would gather after dinner, we'd see this video of everybody on the on the screen. And so that that memory specifically is what really pushed me into creativity, and I I went to school first for I did a little bit of film, and then I moved into graphic design and website design. So kind of a similar journey. I just kind of found a need and then did small projects for friends and grew from film to graphic design to mobile design, web design, all that kind of stuff. But is there a memory that you can recall that really kicked you off into this whole creativity realm, either when you were a kid or a teenager? Is there that one memory in your brain that's always like, okay. That could have been the beginning stage for this entire journey? You know, I would say it crept up. You know, it was more more one of those things where there's a little bit of interest and a little bit of gratification, and both of those things kind of snowballed over time. You know, so there was no, like, the light shines down on me kind of moment. There were certainly I mean, there's certainly films that I watched, that were like, oh, yeah. This is, you know, this is a really significant film. This is going to change things. Like, as a science fiction nerd growing up in the seventies, like, I would go see all the science fiction movies when they came out, and they were they were pretty uniformly terrible except for the Andromeda strain. But I remember sitting in the movie theater on opening day watching Star Wars going, like, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. This is this is it. Right? And and to a to a somewhat lesser extent, Raiders of the Lost Ark, which I thought was, like, cinematically more interesting, but not as not as kind of cultural and, filmmaking technology, paradigmatically different. Yeah. So, so, like, you know, I could talk about the movie part. The technology part, you know, I think probably the reason I spent so much time in film and special effects and and that kind of stuff, was that computers, you know, for a man my age, computers at the time were not that interesting. They were a character mode. They were very hard to get a hold of. You know, I didn't didn't have one in my house. Didn't have a color TV. Didn't have a VCR. Didn't have cable TV when I was growing up. Had to walk to school uphill both ways, etcetera, etcetera. But, right, it was just sort of normal at the at that time. And so computers were extremely primitive, and I, you know, I did seek them out and got some time on them even as a teenager. But it it involved like, I bicycle to RadioShack, bought a book about basic programming, took it home, wrote a program on legal pads, bicycle back to RadioShack, and the the the clerk was, like, whatever. I don't know what he's doing. And I was, like, typing it into the computer so I could run it. You know, it didn't save it or anything. It's just, like, 300 lines of basic and oh, look. It works. What's what's this? You know? And so I had I had those kinds of experiences. And one of the things that I found, like, the snowballing effect was what I what I would call the gratification loop of programming, which is you can do a little something and understand a little something, and then you see it work. And in creative endeavors, it's never that clear cut. You know? If you've worked on something for a long time, you have an idea if you're moving it in the direction yet or not. But, but in programming, it's just obvious, like, you did it. Right? So that kind of dopamine cycle, if you will, is a lot tighter. Now with digital production and especially now as you get into this AI and this generation stuff, I think people are gonna be having that dopamine cycle, with creative endeavors as well. So there's, you know, it's gonna all merge together eventually. Yeah. But there was no there was no one, like, technology There were a lot of little things that would guide me towards creative aspects or technology things. It it sounds like it it really crept up on you and and it's all it sounded like in the beginning, it was more to solve an immediate need. Right? As you were working on different projects and you need to solve some immediate need that I need to send you a screen play or pay my rent. Exactly. And and that just reminds me of, you know, there was there was a company that I was at before where the CTO always said that that lazy people make the best engineers and and developers, and I always thought that was really strange. But the more I listened to him say it, it was really about, like like you mentioned, you're trying to solve for these automation or these automate away these mundane tasks, and you wanna be able to do that so you could free more of your time to do something more interesting. And it's not to say the act of of developing the work is lazy. It's just that you wanna solve something that a computer could do. And, you know, now coming into the age of AI and everything else, it's, you know, all these possibilities will go into that. Mark is, like, is it gonna be more more of that, or are we going into an entirely new and disruptive paradigm? And I the jury's still kinda out on that. Right. Could go either way. You kids are gonna have to figure it out. Yeah. Do you find it I'm hoping I'm hoping it'll time out, like, just around the time I hit retirement AI figures out longevity and, and UBI. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's like at a certain point, you know, you get to computers had a limited capacity to solve a limited number of mechanical issues. They've obviously grown in technical ability to the point where it's Mhmm. At some point what it can do most of what a human can do or 90% and, you know, there are What are you saying? The 90% of what humans what humans have been able to contribute to the economy, particularly the industrial economy has been designed to be something that could eventually be replaced with a sufficiently capable machine. Right? Right. You know? So the a lot of the activity and I I I it is in fact a concern when I'm programming now and I'm writing something that's like, well, this is complex, but it doesn't really doesn't really dig into any kind of uniquely human things that I'm bringing to this solution. So I'm I'm right now just chewing on, like, what can I do to, to offload that kind of work? You know, can I can I convince, a large language model to absorb a bunch of this complexity for me so that I can work more as a director? And and this is this is, like, the metaphor that that that I've been toying with a lot is, you know, you make a motion picture in what you're doing. And and I'm not to say, like, I haven't done Hollywood for 30 plus years. Right? So I've been a software engineer this whole time. But, the process is you gather people together. Everyone has a bit of expertise or has deep expertise at at at one or more skills, and you are going to combine that expertise to produce some something that's, you know, greater than the sum of its parts. And I think a lot of work that we have is going to feel more more like the role of a producer or director in a film, you know, where and I like and believe me, it pains me to leave out actors and writers and and and people like that who have a lot of skill that they're bringing to the table. But but I think what you're really looking at is expressing an intent to some instrumentality that will deliver you a a solution based on that intent. You know? So show me a picture of an astronaut riding a unicorn might be your intent. You wanna see that for some reason. And then, just as you might have asked a human artist to produce that for you, now, you know, a an AI artist will produce that for you. Whether or not it's good or what you wanted, that I think that's the, the friction in the question that we have moving forward. I I have a lot of artist friends, and I would like to see them stay gainfully employed and bring all their many wonderful skills to, humanity still. So I don't, I don't I don't think there's a a quick solution to that. Yeah. But I am digressing. Yeah. Do you find so I think back when all of us were you know, Pedro and I are certainly a little a little more junior than yourselves, not too much. You're you're not that much older than us. But back when we were getting into technology, whether it be videos or software or computers, you know, the the learning curve, in my opinion, was a little bit easier because there was only so many technologies that we could learn and study, you know, so we could dive into a programming language. You know, when I started diving into Dreamweaver, there really wasn't too much out there on the market to learn, so I kinda just went with one platform. So it was a little bit easier back then. In today's age, you know, there's AI. There's all these other other languages to do everything. There's 500 ways to do everything. So do you find that more exciting that there's so many ways to accomplish a task, or do you find it more daunting? And and do you still kind of traditionally go back to some fallbacks that you you are more comfortable with? So, you know, I I think this is a question that will always come up in in the life of any human being who's trying to be productive in in a world of economic value exchange these days. Right? It's been a long time since I felt like I had great depth in a piece of technology. You know? Like, I started as a web developer at Google in 2006, and I thought, like, okay. I have more depth in this than most people, but I don't feel that way now, like, well over 15 years later. So it's, you know, the the the the technology, space will always grow. Mhmm. There is there's always a trade off between building out your production capacity and producing. Right? And some people get obsessed with production and ignore production capacity, and some people will go the other way. When I was word processing, I often would encounter a certain sort of person who would say, well, I'll just retype it. And I was like, you could copy paste it. You could write a macro. You could write a mer mail merge program. You know, there are a lot of things you could do if you invested some time in understanding something that would pay off not only for this project. It might be a wash in terms of this one thing, but then it would pay off again and again and again moving forward. And I still have those conversations within my own head every day when I'm writing software. Right? It's like, how much do I refactor this today? How per how how much production do I have to get done today to accomplish all the other goals that I'm trying to do? And how much, how much infrastructure should I be putting down for myself or learning about to increase my my capacity moving forward. It's continual juggling act and, sometimes in opposition to, this gratification loop. Like, it is not gratifying to have a bug you can't figure out. That's just a pain in the butt. It's no fun to write unit tests. That is just a pain in the butt. But if you write the unit tests, you may not have to deal with the bug, and they'll pile up and give you more and more robust code and better understanding of the code that you've already written because you can refer to the tests. And as my my colleagues will tell you, I am not the most meticulous of unit testers, particularly for user interface code, But I always find that it pays off. So that's the same thing with acquiring knowledge or studying things. It's like, it'll always pay off, but you have to balance it out with what you have to get done, like, right now. But I think most people on the side of production over increasing production capacity, especially especially people who are newer. One of my next questions was going to be around the future because, obviously, we're in this these days where I mentioned there's kinda new technology every week. There's just something different, including AI. So how do you see you've already mentioned some of the things that you're building. You see them being used for the next 10 to 15 years. I guess, where do you see some stability in what you're what people are developing these days that'll be around for a long term in a long time also, long term long time? But what are some things that you think are kind of at the end of their life cycle or things that are being developed that really have a a short shelf life? Is there anything in your head that you see both on the short term side of things and the long term side of things? Do you think do you think AI will, like I I personally think AI is gonna change the game. It'll it'll morph over time, but I think AI is gonna be around a long time as opposed to maybe something like NFTs, which kinda came and went quickly. So I'm just kinda curious if there's anything you've ever thought about along those lines. Well, I mean, there have been a few times where I'm like, okay. This is this is an important thing. I'm really gonna have to dig in on this. And, some of it's philosophical. So the big technology choices that I've made where I've decided to spend time in a discretionary way and not at the behest of an employer has always been what is technology that is going to be portable. And by that, I mean, knowledge and understanding that is not at that is not controlled by a single vendor, particularly, and that can be applied broadly. So JavaScript, I learned on my own time. You know? By day, I was programming in c plus plus. Machine learning and AI, I am still learning on my own time. You know? And the prod the side projects that I'm doing around that are all on my own time. They're not they're not any learning how to do, you know, that web 2.0 style AJAX JavaScript stuff. That was all that was all stuff I thought, well, I need to know how to do this regardless of who's paying me. So you're you're looking for moments in the marketplace where it's like, like, people people are gonna want this. People are gonna want more and more of it, and no vendor is going to capture all the value from it. You know, I I spent a chunk of time in the nineties as a, a Windows developer. So I was writing an application, couple several applications for the Windows platform. And I did not go home and screw around with Windows in the evenings because I, like you know, however you might feel about Windows technically, that was that was Microsoft's game. You were always gonna be playing in Microsoft's game if you were developing for Windows. And I I think, you know, I have the same skittishness about building stuff that could only work with the OpenAI APIs. I think OpenAI is doing great work. You know? Windows became dominant by being the thing that people want, and I think AI is doing the same thing in collaboration with Microsoft to some extent. So I'm I'm skittish about that. You know? I I had some interest in the the crypto space, particularly the, you know, executing code on on chain Mhmm. Because it had the promise of giving us a mechanism where the infrastructure wasn't owned or controlled by a particular entity. The reality is a lot fuzzier and not nearly as as idealistic as I would have wanted. But that was where, you know, the interest that I did have in it came from. It's this idea that I can create value and I can distribute that value and I can I can get, remunerated for the effort that I put into creating that value in some way that is not, at the at the whim of some some other provider platform owner, or potential competitor? So that's why I've always been very big on web based technologies, even though I spent several years at Google writing, you know, iOS native apps. So that's that's sort of, you know, a roundabout way of saying, what do you what do you think you can take with you? You know? What will, there as OpenAI starts to, like, announce, hey. Look. We've cut our price in half, and we've we've introduced retrieval augmented, generation. And, you know, what companies are basically were only doing that, plus not very much else that are now, like Mhmm. You know, their heads are exploding. Oh my god, you know, we're only 3 times cheaper than OpenAI used to be and, you know, now we don't have a competitive mode. So there's a certain amount of figuring out what can you do. I mean, it's the same thing. You know? Go back to Hollywood. It's the same thing. You know? What have you got? The only thing that you've got that's different from anything anybody else has is your unique intent and your unique perspective on the world and your take on a problem and your your skills at working towards a solution that embraces what's unique about you. And I think that, you know, if I were gonna give this as advice, you know, scratch your own itch and be really scared of proprietary platforms. And whether the platform is, you know, Google or Facebook or you know? I I I don't see it as much as I used to, but there was a long time I would run into kids who were like, c sharp is the best. We're gonna, like, build this with c sharp. And it's, like, you know, however however good old programming language c sharp might be, it was entirely the play toy of people in Redmond. And you're you're locking yourself into a particular vendor and when you do that. So, you know, there's there's usually a platform and a platform a set of platform technologies. And if it's a proprietary platform and they're starting to move you to proprietary technologies, you're like, well, how confident am I in this platform? How much do I believe? How much am I going to risk my career on the Atari ST or the 3 d o game console or, you know, the Amiga 2 1,000 or the Palm Pilot. You know, there are all these technologies that, you know, were opportunities for people. Like, I shipped this app on this platform, and the platform's getting uptake, and it's gonna be great. But then if it loses a platform battle, then you're kind of stuck. Like, okay. I've gotta personally retool to either target a new platform, or you could make technology choices and, you know, choices about your own efforts that will lead you to knowledge, skill, and understanding that you can take with you to the next thing. I think, Gavin, I I think we could probably continue this conversation for an hour. But, what I'd like to do is kind of allow you to wrap up with a little we know that I like to talk. We know that you like to talk. But I'd love to wrap all of this up. You've got a a very incredible and kind of experienced life of just different things that you've tried, different technologies you've seen. You know, if you have one piece of advice or one thing that you love that you want to make sure everybody knows about, I mean, give us, like, a good as long as you want outro of kind of some of the some of the things that you've learned, advice you have for others, things that you you care about. Oh, you mean you're, like, giving an old man permission to rant for just a minute? Okay. Yeah. Go yeah. Go for it. Yeah. So so if you're at the beginning of your software engineering career, I would still recommend that you learn how to type at least about 40 words a minute with some accuracy. There's plenty of ways to learn to do that. It's worth the effort because it will clear space in your head for things that are actually difficult problems if you don't have to worry about the mechanical stress of typing something. This is probably not gonna be advice that's gonna be worth anything in 20 years, but it's going to be advice that's useful for the next 5. So that's a little thing. A little thing that I've been doing more recently that has been helpful is, this is such a cliche, regular exercise. I am I've been doing barbell stuff. Obviously, I'm not a giant person, but the thing that I didn't expect to get out of it, the the physical benefits are, of course, all the ones you hear about. The thing that I didn't expect to get out of it was the psychological training of stepping up and repeatedly doing something difficult that you didn't want to do in the moment in order to get a benefit further down the line. Right? And just that mental exercise is incredibly valuable. If you're if you're getting it while you, you know, exercise your body, if you're like most Americans, you will be ahead of most Americans. So it's it's worth doing, and I say this as someone who despises my time in the gym. But that the mental thing was, like, the unusual thing, and it's something that I I would encourage, especially, programmers who are all interested in technology to explore and spend some time on, and it'll it'll pay off. The time the time will come back to you, many fold, especially over the the length of your life. The other thing is get out and engage with people. Almost all the jobs that I've had had a component of knowing someone. And it's not to say that people hired me because they knew me, but they wanted to hire me because they knew me, if that makes any sense. Like, I had to be able to do the job and convince everyone and convince people who didn't know me I could do the job. But the personal connections, were always really important, And they were connections forged by oftentimes working with someone and demonstrating over a period of weeks or months or sometimes years that I could do a job, that I was good to work with, that I wasn't that I was trying to contribute towards the success of the project and to their success. And that, you know, wouldn't say it ingratiated me, but it meant that they they knew it they knew what I was about, and they could trust me and that they would they would be my champion, you know, at the next place. It's like, oh, and, you know, combine that sometimes with the skills that that are necessary at that moment in technology history. I think that was that was a good a good combination for a lot of my career. You know, there are people I work with now that I worked with 20 years ago at the startup I left Picasa for. So they kept on with their careers and, you know, when I was looking for something new to do, they're like, well, you know, we're starting up this new technology group. You could come come be the first hire, hire your own boss. So, you know all of those things. Life is long. Your relationships with other people are going to be valuable to you while you have them and then later on. You shouldn't have them for their later value. You should have them to be present with other people now. You know, be collegial if if that's all you've got in common, and if you have other interests that you share, by all means, you know, talk about them. I I have a friend that I worked at at 5 different companies with in Los Angeles, including, including Google. So, we just you know, wherever one of us landed, we'd go like, you know, I think Mike's available or I think Gavin's available. And, you know, that that worked out well for both of us over time. So, you know, keep up with people. They're they're important, And, you know, find ways to work on projects with people. If you're if you're early on, especially if you're not in a, you know, a big metropolis with a lot of technology going on, You know, open work on open source projects with people, take their take their poll request reviews seriously, Try to contribute to the project. What's in it for you is the process of contributing, not not a an immediate byproduct. Yeah. It's like, one of my my oldest son was like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to, like, you know, help you out in your old age, dad, you know? And I'm like, you don't owe me anything. You know? The the the the good that I got out of the process of raising you was the process of raising you. You know? Go have your own great life. And that's that's where I wanna end it. Go have your own great life. Like, technology is a a great thing to do. If you hate it, though, you should find something else to do. Yeah. Absolutely. So parting words of wisdom from Gavin. Work out your work out your body, work out your mind, and get out there, meet as many people as you can, form that community. And Yeah. You know, I think that's what life's about. Alright. Is there anywhere that people can follow your work, or do you have a website or a blog or maybe just a social media? Well, I have a cop website as they used to call it at gavin dotcom, which is a an a ill maintained WordPress blog. You can find me, I'm still a little more active on x than I that I'm comfortable with, but you can find me at Gavin Doughty on on Twitter. Twitter, Elon. And, and and basically, the way you spell my name is weird enough that I have no hopes of Internet privacy at this point in my life. So it's Yeah. Gavin, g a v I n, like the governor of California, and Doughty is d o u g h t I e, like bread dough in a necktie. Yeah. Well, yeah, I I also will second Pedro's, words there. I I definitely appreciate the advice that you gave at the end outside of technology. Pedro and I have been at the same you know, worked at 3 companies together. We Right. Kind of are have that human to human relationship. Funnily enough, on a second topic, today is my 15th Twitterversary. So I've been on Twitter for 15 years today. But, yeah, I would definitely appreciate the the the technical and nontechnical advice you you gave today, Gavin. I think a lot of our viewers will appreciate both of those because getting out amongst humans, I think, is important as we start to enter this world of, VR headsets. So we'll stay real out of the matrix while we do. But, but we appreciate the time today, and and, hopefully, people can give some feedback about what they've learned from your your story.","published",[145,155,166],{"people_id":146},{"id":147,"first_name":148,"last_name":149,"avatar":150,"bio":151,"links":152},"62f63883-dfc3-437e-ac21-28f18f215797","Gavin","Doughtie","fb0bf555-59bd-43f6-b749-e6965a00fa54","Senior Developer at AON Cyber Solutions",[153],{"url":137,"service":154},"linkedin",{"people_id":156},{"id":157,"first_name":158,"last_name":159,"avatar":160,"bio":161,"links":162},"9610ff1c-bcfd-4e59-9ab8-17ff5f567ccb","John","Daniels","5100c5aa-0455-48eb-bae3-4380bfd82ea2","Customer Success at Directus",[163],{"url":164,"service":165},"https://directus.io/team/john-daniels","website",{"people_id":167},{"id":168,"first_name":169,"last_name":170,"avatar":171,"bio":161,"links":172},"6057329f-2147-4f46-913f-d6b151dc1bf1","Pedro","Pizarro","7940df6a-db0a-4afe-81bb-a136ef93d229",[173],{"url":174,"service":165},"https://directus.io/team/pedro-pizarro",[],{"id":177,"number":178,"year":179,"episodes":180,"show":185},"53382dd3-4dd7-44f0-9102-a257b4760115",1,"2023",[181,122,182,183,184],"68c8fd05-ac09-4485-aa57-bb8d74a26699","83739ed2-e3ac-485c-97fa-f683db114386","836d591e-0f5c-47db-9756-c87d97283c02","57dcdecb-35d2-45da-b230-17ec18dfabce",{"title":186,"tile":187},"Trace Talks","c3914dd2-0a22-4214-a2ac-8314b7a56c27",{"id":189,"slug":190,"season":191,"vimeo_id":192,"description":193,"tile":194,"length":195,"resources":8,"people":8,"episode_number":178,"published":196,"title":197,"video_transcript_html":198,"video_transcript_text":199,"content":8,"seo":200,"status":143,"episode_people":201,"recommendations":205},"5755bb0e-40d5-49c3-bc89-29fb576a4d37","naz-delam","814d854d-db03-4f92-99ba-d825df61fb36","948642030","In this episode of Trace Talks, engineering leader Naz Delam shares her journey to LinkedIn, highlighting key leadership lessons she's learned along the way – from challenges of leading teams during tech layoffs to empowering teams through autonomy and ownership.\n\nNaz also offers practical advice on handling layoffs, continuous learning, and effective networking. \n\nThis episode is a MUST-LISTEN for any aspiring leaders in the tech industry.","64ce77c4-fc3c-4b5b-b344-771d6b867731",52,"2024-05-30","Naz Delam, Software Engineering Manager at LinkedIn","\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Oh, hey. It's a visit from the cat. I was hoping it would show up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Today, we have Naz. Naz, first off, congratulations on becoming a naturalized US citizen today. That's very exciting, very exciting. Sometimes I take that for granted. So it's very exciting when people I know have that happen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But, yeah, we'll we'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you let the people know just a brief background into who you are, maybe just a brief introduction into where you are, and then we'll get into the conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Absolutely. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon wherever you are in the world. My name is Naz. I am currently an engineering leader at LinkedIn, leading media, and, previously worked as as a engineering manager and software engineer at Netflix.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>My background to tech was very traditional, so studied bachelor and master's, in computer engineering and afterwards, systems engineering. So, yeah, it's been, 10 plus years that I am in San Francisco Bay Area, and I got my first job here right after school.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for that quick intro. As this is kind of a a a podcast focus on leadership, I figured we'd start on that leadership trend. Right now, obviously, in in tech and even starting outside of tech, there's a lot of organizational changes happening and tech layoffs and everything that's, you know, kind of on the front the front of everyone's mind.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I guess let's let's kinda start off on, an interesting take. You know, what what are some of the challenges that you see in today's market, in today's, environment being a leadership at a company like LinkedIn in in in in a tech, you know, a tech world where there's a lot of instability and uncertainty?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's that's a great question. Unstability and uncertainty. Being comfortable with both of those and making those a norm, I guess that's the biggest change that we are seeing. And to frame it better, maybe it's just being more comfortable with a lot of change as it's coming your way and be more flexible to perform, knowing all of these uncertainties around you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, as a leader, it's it's very hard sometimes to motivate the team and uplevel engineers when you are in this situation, an industry that everyone are hesitant to put their 100% in. So how do you do that? How do you motivate people? Well, you know, things around you are so chaotic. People are not sure if they're gonna get laid off or not.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There is not more of certainty to the mission of the company. I guess, like, couple of things we are doing as a company is being very transparent with engineers if we have layoffs or not. So we are very clear that we don't have layoffs currently. If we know there's more layoffs, we'll let everyone know. So people will rest assure that there's no surprises.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think it's been happening mostly in a lot of big takes as a surprise, which just has to change for people. It needs to be very more transparent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. That's that's a good point. And I think that, like, you know, especially at start ups and smaller companies, these things can turn on a dime on people, especially when, you know, maybe the company isn't doing so well and people get shocked. And in those environments, I've seen a lot of managers and and colleagues get together and at least share information so that they can prepare for those next steps. Is that something that you've seen happen before?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, how would you recommend the first step if you do get laid off? What that first step is in finding that new position is is, like, would you recommend applying to a bunch of, you know, jobs that you're interested in or really reaching out to that network?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I will recommend take a 2 day off for yourself and do a self reflection. I've been through a layoff. So my last job at Netflix, I was laid off. And, I was on both sides of the coin, and seen both sides. So it's it's hard to get laid off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's never easy, especially if you're performing and you're a great engineer and you're really asking yourself questions why. You know, I have dedicated to this amount of time to this company mission. I have put my all 100% in to develop features. I cared for our users, and now you're telling me to go. And this is not a great feeling for anybody.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I would say the first thing you do is just taking time off and self reflect and try to understand that this is not you, and try to think about your strengths. So what are the things that I'm great at? Because a lot of times when things happen, I see people start to blame themselves and really focusing on shortcomings. These are the things I don't have. Maybe that's why I got laid off because maybe I wasn't great at this.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Oh, how can I find a job now? I'm not great at that. But instead of that, try to be focusing on your strength and see the things that you are getting hired for at the current role and then what are the values that you can take into the next role and next company. And, you know, I coach a lot of engineers nowadays, and I always even say to my team, my direct reports that you're not bound to any company. Your career is you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So when you go to a company, don't bound yourself to a company specifically. Think longer term about your career and know that layoff can happen anytime. So you enter a company. You do your best. You're bringing value with your talent.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If that's an exit, then that's a goodbye in in in different form, and you're taking those values and strengths to another company and bring more value for more people around the world. And that's not the end of your career journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah. And Yeah. Go ahead, John.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I've that brings up a good point, and I'll I'll branch us into more of some questions around your leadership style because I I was watching a podcast that you were on previously this morning, and you mentioned something really interesting. You said you don't wanna be a leader on a team of followers. You wanna be a leader on a team of leaders. And so what what's some of the advice in the in the typical regular day to day that you provide to your team?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? Because it sounds like you want to train your team to be self sufficient, hire smart people who can solve problems, and you wanna lead people who are leaders, which in the end makes you a more valuable employee anyway. So what are some of those other values that you have as a leader? Number 1, leading a team of leaders, but what are some other things that you train your team, some values that you train your team to have so that they're just a more valuable employee in general?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm. I wouldn't call it a valuable employee. I would call them call them great engineers, who can go to any any company or even build their own products. Yeah. That would that was a concept I, read a book called turn the ship around.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's just an amazing leadership book, and, it talks about, how do you empower your team to make decisions on on their own. And that's so true. And it's a very easy statement, but it's not easy in practice. There's a lot of things required for that to be able to do that for your team. Autonomy.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, how do you, as a leader, get all the information to the team that they need? How do you onboard them onto the mission vision? How do you take them to the front lines, how do you get them areas of ownership. And at the same time, as you are in the back of the things, they're also accountable for their work because you don't wanna leave everyone and go. Not everyone feel accountable.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People sometimes just leave things, and they don't follow-up. So how do they be very proactive, and feel ownership of their area? So I think, like, the most important thing is if the person thinks and feels that they are creating the impact and the impact is visible, they feel more ownership to putting in the work. So for me, also, how do I recognize this engineer? How do I shed light on their work in different forums?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Let's say, like, if if I like, it's a upper leadership type of forum. How do I present their work? How do I have them come and demo and show their work? So they feel they own it, and they feel the impact and importance of their work. And for me, not all the projects have the huge, huge impact.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So how do you actually empower engineers to feel that sense of ownership even on projects which is like migration? And, I think for us is whenever we wanna do something, we wanna think about the why of doing it, and it's one of LinkedIn's engineering principles. We need to have a very strong why. If you have an initiative, you have an idea why are you wanna do this. And if that why is very strong, that correlates to impact.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It means there is an impact. And if there is an impact and if I'm as a leader being able to give all the credit to the person who's doing the work, showcase all the light on that person, you know, and then really reward them based on their impact that they're having. They will feel the sense of ownership, and they actually execute pretty well. So that's what it says in that book is that also in addition to this, give them all the knowledge they need to perform and, have them make mistakes. I think that's one of the scariest things as a leader to leave the team to make mistakes, and it needs to be controlled mistakes.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So you you need to know when you can leave like an engineer. You know what's the right solution is, but you're not saying that. You you have them take their path. You have them make mistakes, and you have them learn from those. And a lot of time when people become managers newly, they try to control that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Right? They try to make sure everything is done right on the team, and there's no area of mistake. But mistakes are very crucial for people development. So as a leader, we need to be able to have those controlled risk so people can make mistakes on areas that's it's not gonna fall apart.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I love where you talked about sense of ownership, and I think we've talked about that a few times on this podcast. Obviously, everyone feeling like they're making an impact, feeling like they're driving themselves and the organization forward. But on the flip side of that, you know, especially in today's market, like, we were talking about with the layoffs and the reorganizations that can sometimes happen at that level that it almost doesn't matter the contribution that you made. Like, how do you coach someone through that?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Does that bring down morale if they see maybe half their, you know, half their colleagues have been laid off and now they're still at the company? But they're you know, they recognize that sense of ownership, and they're like, well, they didn't do anything wrong either. How do you keep morale high? How do you coach people through that?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I think one of the important things is to acknowledge all the emotions. Right? Is that it is hard to be in that situation. We had a situation like that last year where I think a bunch of our engineers were laid off late last year. And it is it is hard.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's scary. And, you know, as a leader, you need to acknowledge that. When you go in a room and say, well, everything is butterfly and sunflowers, and we're good, so let's get to work, people doesn't feel like that. Instead, get to a room and say, yes. I feel very bad today.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I, myself, am scared. I, myself, am not happy. I need actually some time to get my, you know, self up and running to be able to execute at my current job as a leader. So take that time too. It is heartbreaking to see people go around us, and I think as you're acknowledging that emotions, people feel more safe.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>People feel that they're in an environment that their leaders feel the same as they are, and no one is trying to, you know, hide things from them or display things in a different way as they are. And that transparency, even on the feelings level, will help people navigate these situations. And be very frank with people. I mean, this is an environment we are in at tech where layoffs are happening. It's been happening forever.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>This is not something new. When you sign a contract with a company, you sign that you can exit anytime, and they can let you go anytime. And this is a norm, and I don't think people should really bound themselves to these things and things like this is the end, and all my contributions are gone. This is not the case. Even for people, the they got laid off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There have been many instances that we help them find their new role, so we are there for them. This wasn't something they have done. They are great engineers. There were many instances that I referred them to different places. We tried our best to find them new places, and, you know, business is business, and I think that's for people to understand.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If CEOs of companies getting laid off, you know, it's it's okay for employees to get laid off. So it's it's a norm. I guess, like, in that situation, just to summarize, just be very honest with people. Talk about their feelings. Acknowledge.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So there is the 7 stages of grief that we all know. You have to walk your team through that 7 stages. And don't do that in one day. Day 1, every stage in one day, and then in the 7th day, people are back to their norm. If you're actually acknowledging the emotion, give them time to come back.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Take that anger. Create spaces for people to talk to you, and have them feel safe by you opening up yourself as a leader and talking about how you feel about this. People continue to open up and just put out everything that they're feeling. There would be anger. There would be resentment.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There would be lack of trust for a while. The morale will get impact, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's the reality of the layoffs. And the companies who are doing that, they know that it will have an impact, Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. Be prepared for productivity. Yeah. Productivity to drop, morale to drop, but but, you know, maybe after a few weeks, it returns back to the norm if you can manage through it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Be prepared because you can expect your team to perform the same way they've been. It's it's grief.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You you know, human beings, we can perform the same way. It's it's exactly the last process.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's take a step back in your journey because I'm always curious how people find their way to leadership, roles that they've had. And I believe part of your story is going through some of these transitions at previous companies that you're in. So I guess let's kind of take take it back to the beginning of your engineering journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, what were you doing? What were some of those roles that you had? And what does that transition from an individual contributor to leadership look like\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: for you? Sure. I wrote a blog post on this as my story called transition to leadership like a butterfly, if if you anyone wanna read, in detail. But I guess I started my engineering journey, like, years back as a back end engineer. So I was doing Java.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>That time was Spring, Khybernet, all these technologies, and I had a lot of pivots. So I'm very curious person, and I wanted to pick up different things. So I pivoted from back end to front end. And then and decide, I did things like machine learning. I worked on self driving cars, did a little bit of AI here and there, studied system engineering while I was working, worked a little bit on NASA.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So so many different branches I had, where I was an engineer. So I wasn't only doing my work. I was very active even outside of my work. And then during that time, as I was exploring different things, was I got this role to becoming a software architect, which was one of the most interesting and fruitful roles I had as an engineer where I could work on, like, a system end to end and work with so many amazing people who had many, many years of experience. So as an engineer, I definitely had experience with all over, all the technologies that we have, across the stack.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I think that made me very, versatile and being able to shift very quickly from, like, back end to front end or using different technologies and, bringing systems upgraded systems and having system understanding. How do you build complex systems that are highly aligned and loosely coupled? So how do you, like, handle risk? How do you test very well? So, that's part of my engineering journey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>But things change. You know? As I started, I was very more technical, and then all of the softer skills getting added as requirement for my role. Right? How do I run a meeting effectively?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And as I grew more and more, I had to deal with more and more people, and that people side got way more interesting for me. So, I talk about my library when I, when I write that blog post where, initially, most of my books were technical. When I started my engineering journey, you can find my library from a programming books. And then as this continues, there's, like, addition of softer skills book getting added to my library. And I would see myself reading those books more more than my technical books, and sometimes I ask myself, like, am I doing the right thing?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Am I, like, going away from my path and doing something new? But, I could say, like, my mindset as my library kind of get transitioned to the people side of it. And over time, I find that more interesting because if I can enable and empower people, and I've been told many times that this is your strength, If I can do that, I would have way more impact than just running myself and executing myself.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Mhmm. Do\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: you find that curiosity that you you found for evolving, you know, soft skills and and newer technologies? That that's definitely a theme that we've heard from almost everyone that we've talked to on this podcast, the curiosity to try new things and then also not be afraid to fail when you're trying new things, but just that curiosity in general. Do you find that to be a crucial a crucial trait to have for a leader? And if so, is that something that you you try and cultivate with your, oh, hey. Visit from the cat.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I was hoping he'd show up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: I'm gonna show up. Show up. Yeah. Is that a trait that you is is that a trait that you cultivate in people that you're leading who who also show that they wanna be leaders? If they don't have that trait or if they do have it, is that something that you cultivate with them?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I mean, people have different personalities. That's the thing I've learned, and not everyone wanna branch this many branches, to be honest. Some people like to go in-depth in one thing, and they stay in one thing, and they they, like, create expertise. Some people like me, they they just like to explore, and they gets maybe bored. I I would like I feel whenever I feel comfortable, and I learn something and I know I'm good at it right now and I'm comfortable with it, now I start to, like, seek something else.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I challenge myself constantly. Not everyone is like that, and it's okay, not to be like that. I think people have very, very different personalities. And, if they are the opposite of the spectrum, doesn't mean that they're not successful, and they can't be greatly less. But for me, specifically, my personality was in that spectrum of, like, I I don't stay in one zone when I'm comfortable, and I'm constantly want to learn something new.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Every year, I pick a new technology to learn out of nowhere. Like, this year, I was looking at quantum computing. Is it related to my job? No. It's it's like out of nowhere I do learn it.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's interesting to me.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Is there any re that's a that's a hefty, hefty topic to start learning. Is there a reason you chose that, or you just you saw it, you had almost no idea what it was, and you just wanted to start exploring it?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Exactly. I saw it. I had no idea. I read things about it, how it solves problem, like, developing new drugs and proteins and working on human DNA, and I'm like, oh my god. This is this is super interesting.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>How does this work? And I started, like, listening to YouTube videos and then reading books about, like, quantum mechanics. So, yeah, I think it's just a curiosity and me wanting to pushing myself constantly out of my comfort zone and challenge myself. I feel that I'm if I feel like I'm in one place, I feel I'm stagnating. So it's it's all about personalities.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, we have different personality traits. I think my my my personality, I'm more of, like, an alpha personality where I have, like, very extreme growth mindset. But people have, like, different spectrums. Some people are very focused on one thing, and they're really great at it, and they don't go out of it. So I think that's totally fine to be in a different spectrum.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>As long as you're growing, it should be totally fine.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's also a future it sounds like it's also a future focus too. Right? Curious about what comes next. I mean, people studying people have been studying, obviously, AI and large language models for, you know, years already.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>We just, as the public, come to see it now. So maybe, like you're saying, quantum computing is that next frontier in 10, 20 years that sort of becomes more more mainstream.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: So, yeah, that that future focus is is interesting. I heard somewhere that, like, I guess at some point, quantum computers can essentially break all encrypted passwords that we have today. So it it could be an interesting problem to solve for tomorrow. Right? Like, how do we secure devices if not with, you know, with passwords and things?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that one thing that it was around 2015 when I went to ACM of ours. I don't know if anyone familiar. Association of Computer Machinery is, like, one of the most prestigious computer science, association, and this award is, like, a Nobel Prize for scientists. So that year, I think, was Bernice Lee who invented the Internet who got the award, and it was at the award ceremony.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there was a committee who is protecting our data. And it was very interesting to me because all of our data now is binary. And with quantum computing, be the future, and it's not transferrable, how are how are our data gonna be read with quantum machines? Who's gonna protect it? Who's gonna keep a repository of all of our data?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And it was surprising to me that there is a whole committee who's responsible for taking care of our data, you know, as a society. And, they're thinking about all of these things. It's like, how do we transfer this data to quantum later on? So people can look at their images, or look at their binary data. But, yeah, if when you go to these places and you see people forward thinking these many levels, you'll be amazed to hear, like, there are people actually thinking about this thing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. And I also assume one thing I've heard you talk about in other podcasts as well is networking, especially as you just wanna become a better a better engineer, better employee, networking with people. And I'm sure those types of events also introduce you to people with really interesting things that they say and and even new topics that you can then, 5 years later, start to investigate yourself. And so what's the for for this podcast and for the people listening here, what is the value of networking that you, you know, find yourself and that you train for or or you you pass on to your mentees as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, a couple of things. First of all, don't network because you want something from people. Network before you want something from people.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So beat those relationships before it comes to, like, looking for a job or, you know, changing your role. And, I always call it vertical and horizontal net networking. So when you are at a role in in your company, you need both of them. So you start the first three months of your role to 1st 6 months doing vertical networking. And by vertical, I mean your team, your manager, your skip manager, and everyone in the chain, and your close partners, so anyone you work with day to day base.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So build relationship with those people. But after that 6 months, you start to do horizon networking, which means going outside your team to other teams that you don't know about. A lot of companies have so many tools. Like, I remember when I was at Netflix, there was this coffee chat where you could register, and you get randomly, matched with someone across the company and you could get a coffee with. At LinkedIn, we have, like, similar tools that you can go in and, you know, chat with people across the company.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If your company doesn't have 1, be the leader and build 1, so people can chat with each other. Or just simply, you know, ping people for, like, a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about them, introduce yourself, and, just connect with them. And then later on, you will be surprised how those people would show up in your journey, in your career. Not everyone have to give you a job or refer you. They will inspire you in so many ways as you're networking with them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You may have a question or you may get an idea and you can run by them or they would just be your advocates. They know you somehow. And when there is an opportunity, they remember you, and they put your name up on the table. So that's that's a thing. Always remember.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Don't forget that horizontal networking. People usually go to companies, and they just rely on the vertical networking. They don't know really anyone across the company, and it's similar outside. As I mentioned, your career is not bound to a company, so think the same thing. Vertical networking in your area, horizontal networking outside your area, network with recruiters in different companies, network with people outside your field.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>LinkedIn right now make it super easy for everybody. I think 10 years was their LinkedIn, but it wasn't as active as now where you could find people this easily. Now we are getting to the area of conferences being back again after COVID. So attended conferences, meetups, and chat with people, learn about them, and they will learn about you too. So that's a that's a good thing to be at.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And there is so many things nowadays. I mean, you see all of these mentorship platforms that's showing up, which wasn't there 10 years ago when we started. That's a great way of networking, getting a mentor. It's a next level because that person is investing in you. And if someone is invest in you, they're way more willingly advocating for you later on than someone who just you meet in a conference.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So go on on these platforms. You know, there's a ton of them across the industry. Maybe get to the session with different mentors, people you aspire to be like them or people you they're ahead of you and you wanna get there. Learn how do they get there and ask for their advice. And then later on, when you build these relationships and talk to so many different people, they will invest in you and advocate for you whenever you are in your career.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. You mentioned LinkedIn was a good resource for that. Obviously, you know, that's bringing the entire network together and having making it easier for people to just reach out. In the past, like, I found it maybe awkward or or scary almost to reach out to people for advice. Like, what would you when you're reaching out to someone that doesn't know you at all completely cold and wanting to network with them, what are some tips that you would recommend on that initial sort of cold message?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: I won't really do that. Right? I won't reach out to someone I don't know, and I don't advise that. That's why I'm saying, like, network before you actually need an advice, like, have a really broad people that you know. I won't send a cold message to someone and say, hey.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I need an advice, and I know need 30 minutes of your time. People are super busy, especially people who are in better stages that can advise you. Right? Go get a mentor. Right now, there is so many ways of doing that.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's all of these platforms. There's Play Doh, Mentor Cruise, MentorMe. I mean, there's so many of them out there that you can find these people on those platforms actually offering you time. So, go find those platforms and find those people, and that's respecting their time and also going there professionally and getting the advice you need. And that will build trust between you and that person because your mentor is now trusting you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you can send the cold message after you have couple of sessions with this person and say, you know what? I need an advice on this. What do I do? And they will always there for you. Like, I'll tell all my mentees, like, I'm your all time advocate.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Anytime I mentor, I'll be there for them, like, through their career. So, yes, it can happen. People, like, send them cold messages and say, hey. Can you make a referral? And I'm like, I I don't even know you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And that makes me question your judgment because how would you want me someone who actually doesn't know you at all to refer you to a role versus someone who's coming in and say, look. I'm looking for a job, and these are the things I wanna get better at. I have a good understanding of myself. Can you advise me how can I find a job? And then at that stage, when I have couple of chats with that person, may mock interview them, I know how their level and how they are.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I actually myself refer them to places that I think it's a great fit for them. So it happens very naturally when you build the relationship the right way. I am not a believer in those cold messages. Sometimes they work, but, I mostly believe in building relationships that are strong with people that have really good foundation and trust.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. That's that's really good advice. I think it's crucial these days to kind of build those are you when you open a position, are Are you when you open a position, are you first thinking of people who have built that type of a relationship with you, whether they're, you know, someone who would fit the position? And then, are you reaching out to your network of people saying, do you know somebody who might fill this position or might fit this position? I guess, which one or both?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know, do you look for both of those types of sources for people when you're scaling your teams?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. So I try to be fair because I don't wanna only look at the people I know and advocate for them, only because I wanna give opportunity to people who I don't know and they can apply to the role. So we I usually build a pool of people where 10 to 20% of them are people I know and I know it's a good fit for this role, and the rest are opportunity for other people to apply to the role. And I take a look at those resumes too. But because I know these people, because I invested them, when a role pops up, I have them top of my mind, and I ping them that this is a role that's popped up.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>If you're interested, apply. But I'm not giving them extra benefits as other people. But the fact that I'm pinging them as a hiring manager and I'm saying apply, they will get an interview pretty easier than people who are applying to the roles, especially in this market. You know a role is popping up in 2 hours. There's 100 of applicants.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, if you have that relationships that people know you, top of their mind, that's the key to get a role is that people who advocate for you and put your name on the table without you wanting that. And that's a huge key to success in the in your career is that building those relationship that can result in this. So whenever I open a role, I have people on top of my mind that I know they're looking for a role and a great fit for this role. And, and I really do that because I know it benefit their role and benefit them. So I don't really refer people who are I don't think they're a good fit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And, you know, they've been people that their life changed because of that. I mean, they get into really big tech companies. I had a mentee who was a waiter, and, afterwards, he got hired at Meta, and that's changed his life. So many of these stories, people who are just entering tech and, you know, it's really hard to find your first job and build relationships like this with people across the industry who can refer them and advocate for it. Them.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So it's a it's a both mix up pool because fairness is super important when I hire. I wanna make sure I give, like, opportunity to all type of people, be as, you know, inclusive as possible to, like, all people from different backgrounds. Also, look at my team and say, like, okay. Is my team diverse enough? You know, what I'm needing.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, do I have enough women at my team? I don't want, like, to having 1 woman in the room or 1 man in room to feel, like, isolated. I want everyone to feel belonging. So looking at the gaps on my team and see, like, what are those gaps that I'm looking for to fill in and really building that diverse pool of people, who are coming in to interview.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Yeah. And on the taking it from from the hiring side, I'm I'm curious putting you as the candidate. I know you were presented with options, you know, to maybe go to YouTube or Google and and LinkedIn, and, obviously, you you ultimately chose LinkedIn. When looking for a place to go, like, what was that deciding factor that made you choose LinkedIn and and framing that as advice for people who are listening? You know, if they're presented with so many options or so many different paths, like, how do you choose?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Mhmm. So, the framework I walk my mentees through is we do have a value table. Before you actually start job searching, you put together maximum five values you're looking into the next role. What are the things you really want in your next role? Example, for me, like, people mattered.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I wanna work in a culture that people come first. Growth mattered. I wanted to work in in a company that supports my growth. You know, technology mattered. I wanted to be a cutting edge technology.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Product mattered for me. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on before, and there are a couple of other things that I have in my value table. And whenever I am interviewing a company, and I always say that interview is a two way assessment. There are things you're assessing too. These values are the things you have to assess.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Ask the recruiter. Ask the hiring manager in your first interview. What is the growth framework on your team? Who was the last person who got promoted on your team? How does promotion happens?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>How do you support an engineer who falls behind? How do you onboard people onto new team? You know, all of these questions you can ask to assess how good is that company and that team role for you in terms of your value. Ask about the product if it matters. Like, how old is the product?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Is it a new thing? Why are we is this a bet? You know? Is it something that we're just gonna do right now and just, disappear, like, a year from now, or is this something the company wanna invest in long term? If these things matter for you, be prepared to ask these questions because a lot of people go into roles blindly just because it's at a good company, and then they're not happy there afterwards because they're not assessing in their interview, their role in the company.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then when you have these values and you're interviewing, I give a score from 1 to 10. 10 means they're great at it. 1, they're very poor. And, then when you're reaching to the offer stage, like top 3, top 2, interview that you're doing, you can see the differences. So, for example, for me, between YouTube and LinkedIn, it was a product.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on, and for me, YouTube was a streaming again. And I'm not a person to go in-depth. As you know, my personality, I love the breadth. I love to get things which is new. I never work on a social media platform like LinkedIn.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that was a a factor like, one of the biggest factor on that table that I picked LinkedIn over YouTube. So if you have that values, it's easy to to know, like, which one I I wanna go to and which value I wanna compromise, which one is compromiseable for me, which one is nice. For me, work life balance is not compromiseable. It's a value. I do a lot of things outside work, and work is not my only thing in life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So, I wanted a company that, you know, I don't have to work 247 because I really don't admire that type of environment. So I think it's toxic. So what are those values and which one you cannot compromise and assessing those over your interview then when you're at a offer stage? You you don't have a hard time to know which one do you have to pick.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I I think I saw that you last end of towards the end of last year ran a marathon, and so those types of hobbies, I think, are pretty important. You know? Pedro and I play music music, and, I think Pedro is a coffee aficionado, so he loves making coffee.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So I think it's important to have those things outside of work to to make sure you stay balanced. It sounds like you have several ways that you evolve yourself. You know, you you said you mentioned reading books and just being curious and learning new technologies. You probably also have your own mentor who you who you get advice from or several mentors. So is it is it hard, or do you just find it come naturally to still make sure that you're growing as a as a person?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Do those does that time come easy, or do you have to make sure that you, you know, spend a couple hours a week making sure that you're growing as a leader as well?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: That's a great question. I feel that's come naturally for me. It's not like I mostly build habits versus, like, I have to read, like, 3 hours per week. It's not like that. It comes as a habit.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You all know the book, Atomic Habits. Right? It's like stacking things and building habits and systems. For me, mostly, it's systems in my life. And you can't have all of it at the same time.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, you can't go to the gym and read books and be great at your work and get a mentor and run projects. It's not possible. You need to have balance long term, but in short term, you may not have a balance. So let's say if you if you wanna get better at something and you have, like, 3 books to finish, you may have to cut off from your gym time or running time or whatever you're doing at on the side for, like, a week. And then a week after, you know that what is cutting off was my running, and now I'm done with this book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So this is the things I'm gonna prioritize. I'm pulling it back up this week. I'm gonna focus on it more. So in long run, there is a balance between all of these things you're doing. But in short run, you prioritize between these things because you can't have all of these things together.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then you build systems for yourself. Systems of learning. What's your system of learning? Is that books right now is so integrated into my life. It's something that, you know, I usually read in the morning when I wake up or if it's a book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Even learning how to read a book pretty fast is super important and summarize it so you can refer to it later on. But building that systems that actually can help you. For me, Fridays is my self reflection days. It's a day I have a session in the morning with my mentor. And after that session, I self reflect on, like, how what did I do this week?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What are the areas I did really well? What are the top things top five things I did at my work? Then that top five things goes to 1 on 1 next week with my manager. And this is kind of what we call it managing up. Like, how do you how do you manage up, and how do you tell your manager and your escape what are you doing, and it's getting harder as you're going higher and higher.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So that's that's a way of me managing up by taking that 5 outlines and putting in my 1 on 1 doc, and then self reflecting of what are the things I have to do next week, looking at my team structure, how everyone is doing, did I capture what they did greatly this week? I do that for my team too, like, every individual on the team. I have a running doc that I say these are the things they did really well this week. So when it comes to their performance review, I am very detailed for advocating for them, for every engineer, and I'm taking all that recognition in. What are the feedbacks I have to give them?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I'm very proactive on giving my direct reports feedback. I will let it sit. If someone is not doing something very well or there is there is a gap that they can do better, it would be right away. Every week, I'm thinking about their performance and how they did. So it won't be a surprise.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>You know? There are some managers that suddenly come after, like, a year, and they say, you didn't do all of these things. And, that's hinder trust. The trust is broken at that stage. So the more honest and the more periodic and the smaller these pieces of feedbacks are and very targeted, the better those those people can grow.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So Friday, my system of self reflection into my life, plan of next week, How's my month look like? Am I having enough fun? How's my gym is going? How's my workouts? Relationship wise, am I spending time with people I love?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Like, sometimes I'm so much slanted at work. I forget about my friends. I'm like, next week, I'm gonna set time with my friends. Next week, I'm gonna spend more time talking to my mom. There are, like, 4 categories in my life.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>It's career, which is one that you all have. It's love and relationships, like you being very socially, satisfied with, like, going out with people, your best friends, your family, your close relatives, spending time with them. For me, financial life matters. I'm doing on that. Am I, like, on track with my goals?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And then, health, like, in terms of am I drinking enough water? Am I a happy person? How's my mental health? Do I need, like, some of the weeks that I'm very exhausted? I usually go to a lighter sort of workout.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And I'm like, okay. This week, I'm gonna go do yoga instead of running because I want less intensity in my life. So how are you assessing that and then having that, like, long term balance? There is this book also called design your life where it talks about these categories, which is something I took from this book, And then, having that categories help me to balance. So I measure every category every week, and I see how I'm doing and which category requires attention.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I prioritize a week after.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: I like that. I have to check out that book.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. I'm I am writing that down because, there's definitely weeks or several weeks in a row where I might neglect 1 or 2 of those categories for sure. So that's that's a good book to write down.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: Awesome. So, yeah, I think, we're coming close to time here for you know, thank you, Naz, for your for your time. I think maybe we could wrap it up with, you know, what's some advice that you would give to anyone who's listening, maybe something top of mind that's, you know, come across your mind over the last week or 2, that you'd like to just kinda pass along? And then where can everyone find you and and follow your journey?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. Oh, that's a hard question. I mean, something that has been top of my mind. I was reading yesterday a quote about someone who lays off.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>I think it was a company called Clarify, and she wrote couple of points I shared on my LinkedIn as opposed to where things I've learned from layoffs. And one of it is, like, really thinking about how do you not bound to one job and then have some back ups, make sure that that happens. The other was, like, really thinking about yourself and getting yourself back up. And, one point that was funny, and a lot of people didn't agree, is that people are there for you when you get laid off. But the reality is they're not.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Everyone having their own job, and you can expect that you're getting laid off and everyone is there for you. And now your friends are taking you to their companies. I mean, they do their best, but it's not the case. So be prepared. I mean, be prepared.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Have your resume ready all the time. I mean, don't just get on your resume when you need a job. Your resume is a reflection of you, and it needs to be ready and updated. Your LinkedIn needs to be ready and updated with latest things you do. And then always and always have 1 or 2 interview per year.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>What are you doing with the company? Even if you're at a place that you're comfortable, always, always interview. You are you'll be at the ready state all the time. Also, you learn about the market and what's going on, in other companies when you interview with them, and it's a it's a way of also networking. So when you interview with hiring managers and they get to know you, later on when they have a role and if you perform there in that interview, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So be ready, before something happens is actually the key in this market. And knowing that your work is not bound to a company. You're taking your work to different companies' missions and vision and enabling part of their journey as a really amazing engineer. And, none of us have to be in a place forever. At least in tech, it's not the case.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>So Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Awesome. Yeah. I I think I think you also once mentioned sorry to sorry to jump in there. I think you also once mentioned around the interviewing process. You also just received feedback feedback from those people about how you present on a camera or your answers, or you get some valuable feedback from those interviews as well.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Yeah. And be very transparent when you do those interviews. Like, I'm not actively looking, but this looks like a good opportunity. I wanna I wanna assess and learn more about this company. Why not doing an interview?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>And putting yourself in those situations more often makes you more comfortable. You'll be more confident. So if people wanna find me, I'm on LinkedIn, nazdaalum. Also, you can find all my handles on my website, nazda dev, and feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about anything I mentioned. Hopefully, we can have those books listed, John, somewhere, so people can find it on-site reference.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say I'm gonna keep in contact with you just to see what books you're reading. Awesome, Naz. Well, yeah, I I really I personally found a lot of value from this conversation.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>There's a lot of things that, you mentioned that I just tend to forget over time, and so I definitely found some great value out of this conversation. Everyone, go follow her on LinkedIn. Pedro's battery is exhausted.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 2: My battery is exhausted, so my camera died, but I am here. Thank you, Nez. Thanks so much for your time. Yeah.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Speaker 1: Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me. It was great.\u003C/p>","Oh, hey. It's a visit from the cat. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher. Yeah. I was hoping it would show up. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks. Today, we have Naz. Naz, first off, congratulations on becoming a naturalized US citizen today. That's very exciting, very exciting. Sometimes I take that for granted. So it's very exciting when people I know have that happen. But, yeah, we'll we'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you let the people know just a brief background into who you are, maybe just a brief introduction into where you are, and then we'll get into the conversation. Absolutely. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon wherever you are in the world. My name is Naz. I am currently an engineering leader at LinkedIn, leading media, and, previously worked as as a engineering manager and software engineer at Netflix. My background to tech was very traditional, so studied bachelor and master's, in computer engineering and afterwards, systems engineering. So, yeah, it's been, 10 plus years that I am in San Francisco Bay Area, and I got my first job here right after school. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for that quick intro. As this is kind of a a a podcast focus on leadership, I figured we'd start on that leadership trend. Right now, obviously, in in tech and even starting outside of tech, there's a lot of organizational changes happening and tech layoffs and everything that's, you know, kind of on the front the front of everyone's mind. So I guess let's let's kinda start off on, an interesting take. You know, what what are some of the challenges that you see in today's market, in today's, environment being a leadership at a company like LinkedIn in in in in a tech, you know, a tech world where there's a lot of instability and uncertainty? Yeah. That's that's a great question. Unstability and uncertainty. Being comfortable with both of those and making those a norm, I guess that's the biggest change that we are seeing. And to frame it better, maybe it's just being more comfortable with a lot of change as it's coming your way and be more flexible to perform, knowing all of these uncertainties around you. So, as a leader, it's it's very hard sometimes to motivate the team and uplevel engineers when you are in this situation, an industry that everyone are hesitant to put their 100% in. So how do you do that? How do you motivate people? Well, you know, things around you are so chaotic. People are not sure if they're gonna get laid off or not. There is not more of certainty to the mission of the company. I guess, like, couple of things we are doing as a company is being very transparent with engineers if we have layoffs or not. So we are very clear that we don't have layoffs currently. If we know there's more layoffs, we'll let everyone know. So people will rest assure that there's no surprises. And I think it's been happening mostly in a lot of big takes as a surprise, which just has to change for people. It needs to be very more transparent. Yeah. That's that's a good point. And I think that, like, you know, especially at start ups and smaller companies, these things can turn on a dime on people, especially when, you know, maybe the company isn't doing so well and people get shocked. And in those environments, I've seen a lot of managers and and colleagues get together and at least share information so that they can prepare for those next steps. Is that something that you've seen happen before? And, how would you recommend the first step if you do get laid off? What that first step is in finding that new position is is, like, would you recommend applying to a bunch of, you know, jobs that you're interested in or really reaching out to that network? I will recommend take a 2 day off for yourself and do a self reflection. I've been through a layoff. So my last job at Netflix, I was laid off. And, I was on both sides of the coin, and seen both sides. So it's it's hard to get laid off. It's never easy, especially if you're performing and you're a great engineer and you're really asking yourself questions why. You know, I have dedicated to this amount of time to this company mission. I have put my all 100% in to develop features. I cared for our users, and now you're telling me to go. And this is not a great feeling for anybody. So I would say the first thing you do is just taking time off and self reflect and try to understand that this is not you, and try to think about your strengths. So what are the things that I'm great at? Because a lot of times when things happen, I see people start to blame themselves and really focusing on shortcomings. These are the things I don't have. Maybe that's why I got laid off because maybe I wasn't great at this. Oh, how can I find a job now? I'm not great at that. But instead of that, try to be focusing on your strength and see the things that you are getting hired for at the current role and then what are the values that you can take into the next role and next company. And, you know, I coach a lot of engineers nowadays, and I always even say to my team, my direct reports that you're not bound to any company. Your career is you. So when you go to a company, don't bound yourself to a company specifically. Think longer term about your career and know that layoff can happen anytime. So you enter a company. You do your best. You're bringing value with your talent. If that's an exit, then that's a goodbye in in in different form, and you're taking those values and strengths to another company and bring more value for more people around the world. And that's not the end of your career journey. That's true. Yeah. And Yeah. Go ahead, John. Yeah. I've that brings up a good point, and I'll I'll branch us into more of some questions around your leadership style because I I was watching a podcast that you were on previously this morning, and you mentioned something really interesting. You said you don't wanna be a leader on a team of followers. You wanna be a leader on a team of leaders. And so what what's some of the advice in the in the typical regular day to day that you provide to your team? You know? Because it sounds like you want to train your team to be self sufficient, hire smart people who can solve problems, and you wanna lead people who are leaders, which in the end makes you a more valuable employee anyway. So what are some of those other values that you have as a leader? Number 1, leading a team of leaders, but what are some other things that you train your team, some values that you train your team to have so that they're just a more valuable employee in general? Mhmm. I wouldn't call it a valuable employee. I would call them call them great engineers, who can go to any any company or even build their own products. Yeah. That would that was a concept I, read a book called turn the ship around. It's just an amazing leadership book, and, it talks about, how do you empower your team to make decisions on on their own. And that's so true. And it's a very easy statement, but it's not easy in practice. There's a lot of things required for that to be able to do that for your team. Autonomy. Like, how do you, as a leader, get all the information to the team that they need? How do you onboard them onto the mission vision? How do you take them to the front lines, how do you get them areas of ownership. And at the same time, as you are in the back of the things, they're also accountable for their work because you don't wanna leave everyone and go. Not everyone feel accountable. People sometimes just leave things, and they don't follow-up. So how do they be very proactive, and feel ownership of their area? So I think, like, the most important thing is if the person thinks and feels that they are creating the impact and the impact is visible, they feel more ownership to putting in the work. So for me, also, how do I recognize this engineer? How do I shed light on their work in different forums? Let's say, like, if if I like, it's a upper leadership type of forum. How do I present their work? How do I have them come and demo and show their work? So they feel they own it, and they feel the impact and importance of their work. And for me, not all the projects have the huge, huge impact. So how do you actually empower engineers to feel that sense of ownership even on projects which is like migration? And, I think for us is whenever we wanna do something, we wanna think about the why of doing it, and it's one of LinkedIn's engineering principles. We need to have a very strong why. If you have an initiative, you have an idea why are you wanna do this. And if that why is very strong, that correlates to impact. It means there is an impact. And if there is an impact and if I'm as a leader being able to give all the credit to the person who's doing the work, showcase all the light on that person, you know, and then really reward them based on their impact that they're having. They will feel the sense of ownership, and they actually execute pretty well. So that's what it says in that book is that also in addition to this, give them all the knowledge they need to perform and, have them make mistakes. I think that's one of the scariest things as a leader to leave the team to make mistakes, and it needs to be controlled mistakes. So you you need to know when you can leave like an engineer. You know what's the right solution is, but you're not saying that. You you have them take their path. You have them make mistakes, and you have them learn from those. And a lot of time when people become managers newly, they try to control that. Right? They try to make sure everything is done right on the team, and there's no area of mistake. But mistakes are very crucial for people development. So as a leader, we need to be able to have those controlled risk so people can make mistakes on areas that's it's not gonna fall apart. Yeah. I love where you talked about sense of ownership, and I think we've talked about that a few times on this podcast. Obviously, everyone feeling like they're making an impact, feeling like they're driving themselves and the organization forward. But on the flip side of that, you know, especially in today's market, like, we were talking about with the layoffs and the reorganizations that can sometimes happen at that level that it almost doesn't matter the contribution that you made. Like, how do you coach someone through that? Does that bring down morale if they see maybe half their, you know, half their colleagues have been laid off and now they're still at the company? But they're you know, they recognize that sense of ownership, and they're like, well, they didn't do anything wrong either. How do you keep morale high? How do you coach people through that? I think one of the important things is to acknowledge all the emotions. Right? Is that it is hard to be in that situation. We had a situation like that last year where I think a bunch of our engineers were laid off late last year. And it is it is hard. It's scary. And, you know, as a leader, you need to acknowledge that. When you go in a room and say, well, everything is butterfly and sunflowers, and we're good, so let's get to work, people doesn't feel like that. Instead, get to a room and say, yes. I feel very bad today. I, myself, am scared. I, myself, am not happy. I need actually some time to get my, you know, self up and running to be able to execute at my current job as a leader. So take that time too. It is heartbreaking to see people go around us, and I think as you're acknowledging that emotions, people feel more safe. People feel that they're in an environment that their leaders feel the same as they are, and no one is trying to, you know, hide things from them or display things in a different way as they are. And that transparency, even on the feelings level, will help people navigate these situations. And be very frank with people. I mean, this is an environment we are in at tech where layoffs are happening. It's been happening forever. This is not something new. When you sign a contract with a company, you sign that you can exit anytime, and they can let you go anytime. And this is a norm, and I don't think people should really bound themselves to these things and things like this is the end, and all my contributions are gone. This is not the case. Even for people, the they got laid off. There have been many instances that we help them find their new role, so we are there for them. This wasn't something they have done. They are great engineers. There were many instances that I referred them to different places. We tried our best to find them new places, and, you know, business is business, and I think that's for people to understand. If CEOs of companies getting laid off, you know, it's it's okay for employees to get laid off. So it's it's a norm. I guess, like, in that situation, just to summarize, just be very honest with people. Talk about their feelings. Acknowledge. So there is the 7 stages of grief that we all know. You have to walk your team through that 7 stages. And don't do that in one day. Day 1, every stage in one day, and then in the 7th day, people are back to their norm. If you're actually acknowledging the emotion, give them time to come back. Take that anger. Create spaces for people to talk to you, and have them feel safe by you opening up yourself as a leader and talking about how you feel about this. People continue to open up and just put out everything that they're feeling. There would be anger. There would be resentment. There would be lack of trust for a while. The morale will get impact, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's the reality of the layoffs. And the companies who are doing that, they know that it will have an impact, Yeah. Yeah. Be prepared for productivity. Yeah. Productivity to drop, morale to drop, but but, you know, maybe after a few weeks, it returns back to the norm if you can manage through it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Be prepared because you can expect your team to perform the same way they've been. It's it's grief. You you know, human beings, we can perform the same way. It's it's exactly the last process. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's take a step back in your journey because I'm always curious how people find their way to leadership, roles that they've had. And I believe part of your story is going through some of these transitions at previous companies that you're in. So I guess let's kind of take take it back to the beginning of your engineering journey. You know, what were you doing? What were some of those roles that you had? And what does that transition from an individual contributor to leadership look like for you? Sure. I wrote a blog post on this as my story called transition to leadership like a butterfly, if if you anyone wanna read, in detail. But I guess I started my engineering journey, like, years back as a back end engineer. So I was doing Java. That time was Spring, Khybernet, all these technologies, and I had a lot of pivots. So I'm very curious person, and I wanted to pick up different things. So I pivoted from back end to front end. And then and decide, I did things like machine learning. I worked on self driving cars, did a little bit of AI here and there, studied system engineering while I was working, worked a little bit on NASA. So so many different branches I had, where I was an engineer. So I wasn't only doing my work. I was very active even outside of my work. And then during that time, as I was exploring different things, was I got this role to becoming a software architect, which was one of the most interesting and fruitful roles I had as an engineer where I could work on, like, a system end to end and work with so many amazing people who had many, many years of experience. So as an engineer, I definitely had experience with all over, all the technologies that we have, across the stack. And I think that made me very, versatile and being able to shift very quickly from, like, back end to front end or using different technologies and, bringing systems upgraded systems and having system understanding. How do you build complex systems that are highly aligned and loosely coupled? So how do you, like, handle risk? How do you test very well? So, that's part of my engineering journey. But things change. You know? As I started, I was very more technical, and then all of the softer skills getting added as requirement for my role. Right? How do I run a meeting effectively? And as I grew more and more, I had to deal with more and more people, and that people side got way more interesting for me. So, I talk about my library when I, when I write that blog post where, initially, most of my books were technical. When I started my engineering journey, you can find my library from a programming books. And then as this continues, there's, like, addition of softer skills book getting added to my library. And I would see myself reading those books more more than my technical books, and sometimes I ask myself, like, am I doing the right thing? Am I, like, going away from my path and doing something new? But, I could say, like, my mindset as my library kind of get transitioned to the people side of it. And over time, I find that more interesting because if I can enable and empower people, and I've been told many times that this is your strength, If I can do that, I would have way more impact than just running myself and executing myself. Mhmm. Do you find that curiosity that you you found for evolving, you know, soft skills and and newer technologies? That that's definitely a theme that we've heard from almost everyone that we've talked to on this podcast, the curiosity to try new things and then also not be afraid to fail when you're trying new things, but just that curiosity in general. Do you find that to be a crucial a crucial trait to have for a leader? And if so, is that something that you you try and cultivate with your, oh, hey. Visit from the cat. I was hoping he'd show up. Yeah. It has my cat, Christopher. I'm gonna show up. Show up. Yeah. Is that a trait that you is is that a trait that you cultivate in people that you're leading who who also show that they wanna be leaders? If they don't have that trait or if they do have it, is that something that you cultivate with them? I mean, people have different personalities. That's the thing I've learned, and not everyone wanna branch this many branches, to be honest. Some people like to go in-depth in one thing, and they stay in one thing, and they they, like, create expertise. Some people like me, they they just like to explore, and they gets maybe bored. I I would like I feel whenever I feel comfortable, and I learn something and I know I'm good at it right now and I'm comfortable with it, now I start to, like, seek something else. I challenge myself constantly. Not everyone is like that, and it's okay, not to be like that. I think people have very, very different personalities. And, if they are the opposite of the spectrum, doesn't mean that they're not successful, and they can't be greatly less. But for me, specifically, my personality was in that spectrum of, like, I I don't stay in one zone when I'm comfortable, and I'm constantly want to learn something new. Every year, I pick a new technology to learn out of nowhere. Like, this year, I was looking at quantum computing. Is it related to my job? No. It's it's like out of nowhere I do learn it. It's interesting to me. Is there any re that's a that's a hefty, hefty topic to start learning. Is there a reason you chose that, or you just you saw it, you had almost no idea what it was, and you just wanted to start exploring it? Exactly. I saw it. I had no idea. I read things about it, how it solves problem, like, developing new drugs and proteins and working on human DNA, and I'm like, oh my god. This is this is super interesting. How does this work? And I started, like, listening to YouTube videos and then reading books about, like, quantum mechanics. So, yeah, I think it's just a curiosity and me wanting to pushing myself constantly out of my comfort zone and challenge myself. I feel that I'm if I feel like I'm in one place, I feel I'm stagnating. So it's it's all about personalities. Like, we have different personality traits. I think my my my personality, I'm more of, like, an alpha personality where I have, like, very extreme growth mindset. But people have, like, different spectrums. Some people are very focused on one thing, and they're really great at it, and they don't go out of it. So I think that's totally fine to be in a different spectrum. As long as you're growing, it should be totally fine. Yeah. I think it's also a future it sounds like it's also a future focus too. Right? Curious about what comes next. I mean, people studying people have been studying, obviously, AI and large language models for, you know, years already. We just, as the public, come to see it now. So maybe, like you're saying, quantum computing is that next frontier in 10, 20 years that sort of becomes more more mainstream. Yeah. So, yeah, that that future focus is is interesting. I heard somewhere that, like, I guess at some point, quantum computers can essentially break all encrypted passwords that we have today. So it it could be an interesting problem to solve for tomorrow. Right? Like, how do we secure devices if not with, you know, with passwords and things? Yeah. I think that one thing that it was around 2015 when I went to ACM of ours. I don't know if anyone familiar. Association of Computer Machinery is, like, one of the most prestigious computer science, association, and this award is, like, a Nobel Prize for scientists. So that year, I think, was Bernice Lee who invented the Internet who got the award, and it was at the award ceremony. And there was a committee who is protecting our data. And it was very interesting to me because all of our data now is binary. And with quantum computing, be the future, and it's not transferrable, how are how are our data gonna be read with quantum machines? Who's gonna protect it? Who's gonna keep a repository of all of our data? And it was surprising to me that there is a whole committee who's responsible for taking care of our data, you know, as a society. And, they're thinking about all of these things. It's like, how do we transfer this data to quantum later on? So people can look at their images, or look at their binary data. But, yeah, if when you go to these places and you see people forward thinking these many levels, you'll be amazed to hear, like, there are people actually thinking about this thing. Yeah. And I also assume one thing I've heard you talk about in other podcasts as well is networking, especially as you just wanna become a better a better engineer, better employee, networking with people. And I'm sure those types of events also introduce you to people with really interesting things that they say and and even new topics that you can then, 5 years later, start to investigate yourself. And so what's the for for this podcast and for the people listening here, what is the value of networking that you, you know, find yourself and that you train for or or you you pass on to your mentees as well? Yeah. That's a good question. Well, a couple of things. First of all, don't network because you want something from people. Network before you want something from people. So beat those relationships before it comes to, like, looking for a job or, you know, changing your role. And, I always call it vertical and horizontal net networking. So when you are at a role in in your company, you need both of them. So you start the first three months of your role to 1st 6 months doing vertical networking. And by vertical, I mean your team, your manager, your skip manager, and everyone in the chain, and your close partners, so anyone you work with day to day base. So build relationship with those people. But after that 6 months, you start to do horizon networking, which means going outside your team to other teams that you don't know about. A lot of companies have so many tools. Like, I remember when I was at Netflix, there was this coffee chat where you could register, and you get randomly, matched with someone across the company and you could get a coffee with. At LinkedIn, we have, like, similar tools that you can go in and, you know, chat with people across the company. If your company doesn't have 1, be the leader and build 1, so people can chat with each other. Or just simply, you know, ping people for, like, a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about them, introduce yourself, and, just connect with them. And then later on, you will be surprised how those people would show up in your journey, in your career. Not everyone have to give you a job or refer you. They will inspire you in so many ways as you're networking with them. You may have a question or you may get an idea and you can run by them or they would just be your advocates. They know you somehow. And when there is an opportunity, they remember you, and they put your name up on the table. So that's that's a thing. Always remember. Don't forget that horizontal networking. People usually go to companies, and they just rely on the vertical networking. They don't know really anyone across the company, and it's similar outside. As I mentioned, your career is not bound to a company, so think the same thing. Vertical networking in your area, horizontal networking outside your area, network with recruiters in different companies, network with people outside your field. LinkedIn right now make it super easy for everybody. I think 10 years was their LinkedIn, but it wasn't as active as now where you could find people this easily. Now we are getting to the area of conferences being back again after COVID. So attended conferences, meetups, and chat with people, learn about them, and they will learn about you too. So that's a that's a good thing to be at. And there is so many things nowadays. I mean, you see all of these mentorship platforms that's showing up, which wasn't there 10 years ago when we started. That's a great way of networking, getting a mentor. It's a next level because that person is investing in you. And if someone is invest in you, they're way more willingly advocating for you later on than someone who just you meet in a conference. So go on on these platforms. You know, there's a ton of them across the industry. Maybe get to the session with different mentors, people you aspire to be like them or people you they're ahead of you and you wanna get there. Learn how do they get there and ask for their advice. And then later on, when you build these relationships and talk to so many different people, they will invest in you and advocate for you whenever you are in your career. Yeah. You mentioned LinkedIn was a good resource for that. Obviously, you know, that's bringing the entire network together and having making it easier for people to just reach out. In the past, like, I found it maybe awkward or or scary almost to reach out to people for advice. Like, what would you when you're reaching out to someone that doesn't know you at all completely cold and wanting to network with them, what are some tips that you would recommend on that initial sort of cold message? I won't really do that. Right? I won't reach out to someone I don't know, and I don't advise that. That's why I'm saying, like, network before you actually need an advice, like, have a really broad people that you know. I won't send a cold message to someone and say, hey. I need an advice, and I know need 30 minutes of your time. People are super busy, especially people who are in better stages that can advise you. Right? Go get a mentor. Right now, there is so many ways of doing that. There's all of these platforms. There's Play Doh, Mentor Cruise, MentorMe. I mean, there's so many of them out there that you can find these people on those platforms actually offering you time. So, go find those platforms and find those people, and that's respecting their time and also going there professionally and getting the advice you need. And that will build trust between you and that person because your mentor is now trusting you. And then you can send the cold message after you have couple of sessions with this person and say, you know what? I need an advice on this. What do I do? And they will always there for you. Like, I'll tell all my mentees, like, I'm your all time advocate. Anytime I mentor, I'll be there for them, like, through their career. So, yes, it can happen. People, like, send them cold messages and say, hey. Can you make a referral? And I'm like, I I don't even know you. And that makes me question your judgment because how would you want me someone who actually doesn't know you at all to refer you to a role versus someone who's coming in and say, look. I'm looking for a job, and these are the things I wanna get better at. I have a good understanding of myself. Can you advise me how can I find a job? And then at that stage, when I have couple of chats with that person, may mock interview them, I know how their level and how they are. And I actually myself refer them to places that I think it's a great fit for them. So it happens very naturally when you build the relationship the right way. I am not a believer in those cold messages. Sometimes they work, but, I mostly believe in building relationships that are strong with people that have really good foundation and trust. Yeah. That's that's really good advice. I think it's crucial these days to kind of build those are you when you open a position, are Are you when you open a position, are you first thinking of people who have built that type of a relationship with you, whether they're, you know, someone who would fit the position? And then, are you reaching out to your network of people saying, do you know somebody who might fill this position or might fit this position? I guess, which one or both? You know, do you look for both of those types of sources for people when you're scaling your teams? Yeah. So I try to be fair because I don't wanna only look at the people I know and advocate for them, only because I wanna give opportunity to people who I don't know and they can apply to the role. So we I usually build a pool of people where 10 to 20% of them are people I know and I know it's a good fit for this role, and the rest are opportunity for other people to apply to the role. And I take a look at those resumes too. But because I know these people, because I invested them, when a role pops up, I have them top of my mind, and I ping them that this is a role that's popped up. If you're interested, apply. But I'm not giving them extra benefits as other people. But the fact that I'm pinging them as a hiring manager and I'm saying apply, they will get an interview pretty easier than people who are applying to the roles, especially in this market. You know a role is popping up in 2 hours. There's 100 of applicants. And, if you have that relationships that people know you, top of their mind, that's the key to get a role is that people who advocate for you and put your name on the table without you wanting that. And that's a huge key to success in the in your career is that building those relationship that can result in this. So whenever I open a role, I have people on top of my mind that I know they're looking for a role and a great fit for this role. And, and I really do that because I know it benefit their role and benefit them. So I don't really refer people who are I don't think they're a good fit. And, you know, they've been people that their life changed because of that. I mean, they get into really big tech companies. I had a mentee who was a waiter, and, afterwards, he got hired at Meta, and that's changed his life. So many of these stories, people who are just entering tech and, you know, it's really hard to find your first job and build relationships like this with people across the industry who can refer them and advocate for it. Them. So it's a it's a both mix up pool because fairness is super important when I hire. I wanna make sure I give, like, opportunity to all type of people, be as, you know, inclusive as possible to, like, all people from different backgrounds. Also, look at my team and say, like, okay. Is my team diverse enough? You know, what I'm needing. Like, do I have enough women at my team? I don't want, like, to having 1 woman in the room or 1 man in room to feel, like, isolated. I want everyone to feel belonging. So looking at the gaps on my team and see, like, what are those gaps that I'm looking for to fill in and really building that diverse pool of people, who are coming in to interview. Yeah. And on the taking it from from the hiring side, I'm I'm curious putting you as the candidate. I know you were presented with options, you know, to maybe go to YouTube or Google and and LinkedIn, and, obviously, you you ultimately chose LinkedIn. When looking for a place to go, like, what was that deciding factor that made you choose LinkedIn and and framing that as advice for people who are listening? You know, if they're presented with so many options or so many different paths, like, how do you choose? Mhmm. So, the framework I walk my mentees through is we do have a value table. Before you actually start job searching, you put together maximum five values you're looking into the next role. What are the things you really want in your next role? Example, for me, like, people mattered. I wanna work in a culture that people come first. Growth mattered. I wanted to work in in a company that supports my growth. You know, technology mattered. I wanted to be a cutting edge technology. Product mattered for me. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on before, and there are a couple of other things that I have in my value table. And whenever I am interviewing a company, and I always say that interview is a two way assessment. There are things you're assessing too. These values are the things you have to assess. Ask the recruiter. Ask the hiring manager in your first interview. What is the growth framework on your team? Who was the last person who got promoted on your team? How does promotion happens? How do you support an engineer who falls behind? How do you onboard people onto new team? You know, all of these questions you can ask to assess how good is that company and that team role for you in terms of your value. Ask about the product if it matters. Like, how old is the product? Is it a new thing? Why are we is this a bet? You know? Is it something that we're just gonna do right now and just, disappear, like, a year from now, or is this something the company wanna invest in long term? If these things matter for you, be prepared to ask these questions because a lot of people go into roles blindly just because it's at a good company, and then they're not happy there afterwards because they're not assessing in their interview, their role in the company. And then when you have these values and you're interviewing, I give a score from 1 to 10. 10 means they're great at it. 1, they're very poor. And, then when you're reaching to the offer stage, like top 3, top 2, interview that you're doing, you can see the differences. So, for example, for me, between YouTube and LinkedIn, it was a product. I wanted to work on a product I've never worked on, and for me, YouTube was a streaming again. And I'm not a person to go in-depth. As you know, my personality, I love the breadth. I love to get things which is new. I never work on a social media platform like LinkedIn. So that was a a factor like, one of the biggest factor on that table that I picked LinkedIn over YouTube. So if you have that values, it's easy to to know, like, which one I I wanna go to and which value I wanna compromise, which one is compromiseable for me, which one is nice. For me, work life balance is not compromiseable. It's a value. I do a lot of things outside work, and work is not my only thing in life. So, I wanted a company that, you know, I don't have to work 247 because I really don't admire that type of environment. So I think it's toxic. So what are those values and which one you cannot compromise and assessing those over your interview then when you're at a offer stage? You you don't have a hard time to know which one do you have to pick. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I saw that you last end of towards the end of last year ran a marathon, and so those types of hobbies, I think, are pretty important. You know? Pedro and I play music music, and, I think Pedro is a coffee aficionado, so he loves making coffee. So I think it's important to have those things outside of work to to make sure you stay balanced. It sounds like you have several ways that you evolve yourself. You know, you you said you mentioned reading books and just being curious and learning new technologies. You probably also have your own mentor who you who you get advice from or several mentors. So is it is it hard, or do you just find it come naturally to still make sure that you're growing as a as a person? Do those does that time come easy, or do you have to make sure that you, you know, spend a couple hours a week making sure that you're growing as a leader as well? That's a great question. I feel that's come naturally for me. It's not like I mostly build habits versus, like, I have to read, like, 3 hours per week. It's not like that. It comes as a habit. You all know the book, Atomic Habits. Right? It's like stacking things and building habits and systems. For me, mostly, it's systems in my life. And you can't have all of it at the same time. Like, you can't go to the gym and read books and be great at your work and get a mentor and run projects. It's not possible. You need to have balance long term, but in short term, you may not have a balance. So let's say if you if you wanna get better at something and you have, like, 3 books to finish, you may have to cut off from your gym time or running time or whatever you're doing at on the side for, like, a week. And then a week after, you know that what is cutting off was my running, and now I'm done with this book. So this is the things I'm gonna prioritize. I'm pulling it back up this week. I'm gonna focus on it more. So in long run, there is a balance between all of these things you're doing. But in short run, you prioritize between these things because you can't have all of these things together. And then you build systems for yourself. Systems of learning. What's your system of learning? Is that books right now is so integrated into my life. It's something that, you know, I usually read in the morning when I wake up or if it's a book. Even learning how to read a book pretty fast is super important and summarize it so you can refer to it later on. But building that systems that actually can help you. For me, Fridays is my self reflection days. It's a day I have a session in the morning with my mentor. And after that session, I self reflect on, like, how what did I do this week? What are the areas I did really well? What are the top things top five things I did at my work? Then that top five things goes to 1 on 1 next week with my manager. And this is kind of what we call it managing up. Like, how do you how do you manage up, and how do you tell your manager and your escape what are you doing, and it's getting harder as you're going higher and higher. So that's that's a way of me managing up by taking that 5 outlines and putting in my 1 on 1 doc, and then self reflecting of what are the things I have to do next week, looking at my team structure, how everyone is doing, did I capture what they did greatly this week? I do that for my team too, like, every individual on the team. I have a running doc that I say these are the things they did really well this week. So when it comes to their performance review, I am very detailed for advocating for them, for every engineer, and I'm taking all that recognition in. What are the feedbacks I have to give them? I'm very proactive on giving my direct reports feedback. I will let it sit. If someone is not doing something very well or there is there is a gap that they can do better, it would be right away. Every week, I'm thinking about their performance and how they did. So it won't be a surprise. You know? There are some managers that suddenly come after, like, a year, and they say, you didn't do all of these things. And, that's hinder trust. The trust is broken at that stage. So the more honest and the more periodic and the smaller these pieces of feedbacks are and very targeted, the better those those people can grow. So Friday, my system of self reflection into my life, plan of next week, How's my month look like? Am I having enough fun? How's my gym is going? How's my workouts? Relationship wise, am I spending time with people I love? Like, sometimes I'm so much slanted at work. I forget about my friends. I'm like, next week, I'm gonna set time with my friends. Next week, I'm gonna spend more time talking to my mom. There are, like, 4 categories in my life. It's career, which is one that you all have. It's love and relationships, like you being very socially, satisfied with, like, going out with people, your best friends, your family, your close relatives, spending time with them. For me, financial life matters. I'm doing on that. Am I, like, on track with my goals? And then, health, like, in terms of am I drinking enough water? Am I a happy person? How's my mental health? Do I need, like, some of the weeks that I'm very exhausted? I usually go to a lighter sort of workout. And I'm like, okay. This week, I'm gonna go do yoga instead of running because I want less intensity in my life. So how are you assessing that and then having that, like, long term balance? There is this book also called design your life where it talks about these categories, which is something I took from this book, And then, having that categories help me to balance. So I measure every category every week, and I see how I'm doing and which category requires attention. I prioritize a week after. I like that. I have to check out that book. Yeah. I'm I am writing that down because, there's definitely weeks or several weeks in a row where I might neglect 1 or 2 of those categories for sure. So that's that's a good book to write down. Awesome. So, yeah, I think, we're coming close to time here for you know, thank you, Naz, for your for your time. I think maybe we could wrap it up with, you know, what's some advice that you would give to anyone who's listening, maybe something top of mind that's, you know, come across your mind over the last week or 2, that you'd like to just kinda pass along? And then where can everyone find you and and follow your journey? Yeah. Sure. Oh, that's a hard question. I mean, something that has been top of my mind. I was reading yesterday a quote about someone who lays off. I think it was a company called Clarify, and she wrote couple of points I shared on my LinkedIn as opposed to where things I've learned from layoffs. And one of it is, like, really thinking about how do you not bound to one job and then have some back ups, make sure that that happens. The other was, like, really thinking about yourself and getting yourself back up. And, one point that was funny, and a lot of people didn't agree, is that people are there for you when you get laid off. But the reality is they're not. Everyone having their own job, and you can expect that you're getting laid off and everyone is there for you. And now your friends are taking you to their companies. I mean, they do their best, but it's not the case. So be prepared. I mean, be prepared. Have your resume ready all the time. I mean, don't just get on your resume when you need a job. Your resume is a reflection of you, and it needs to be ready and updated. Your LinkedIn needs to be ready and updated with latest things you do. And then always and always have 1 or 2 interview per year. What are you doing with the company? Even if you're at a place that you're comfortable, always, always interview. You are you'll be at the ready state all the time. Also, you learn about the market and what's going on, in other companies when you interview with them, and it's a it's a way of also networking. So when you interview with hiring managers and they get to know you, later on when they have a role and if you perform there in that interview, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you. So be ready, before something happens is actually the key in this market. And knowing that your work is not bound to a company. You're taking your work to different companies' missions and vision and enabling part of their journey as a really amazing engineer. And, none of us have to be in a place forever. At least in tech, it's not the case. So Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I I think I think you also once mentioned sorry to sorry to jump in there. I think you also once mentioned around the interviewing process. You also just received feedback feedback from those people about how you present on a camera or your answers, or you get some valuable feedback from those interviews as well. Yeah. And be very transparent when you do those interviews. Like, I'm not actively looking, but this looks like a good opportunity. I wanna I wanna assess and learn more about this company. Why not doing an interview? And putting yourself in those situations more often makes you more comfortable. You'll be more confident. So if people wanna find me, I'm on LinkedIn, nazdaalum. Also, you can find all my handles on my website, nazda dev, and feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about anything I mentioned. Hopefully, we can have those books listed, John, somewhere, so people can find it on-site reference. Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say I'm gonna keep in contact with you just to see what books you're reading. Awesome, Naz. Well, yeah, I I really I personally found a lot of value from this conversation. There's a lot of things that, you mentioned that I just tend to forget over time, and so I definitely found some great value out of this conversation. Everyone, go follow her on LinkedIn. Pedro's battery is exhausted. My battery is exhausted, so my camera died, but I am here. Thank you, Nez. Thanks so much for your time. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me. 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